Illegal to play live music in Indiana without a permit from IN Homeland Security

[foszoe]

I believe my post had as much relevance to the OP as did the your post advocating state car inspections. Did I bring inspections or did you? Regardless of who did, you keep bringing it up and if it has to do with the OP then questioning you about it should be on an equal level.

I suppose if you offered statistics to back up the assertion that state inspections would decrease fatalities there would be something to discuss. There are states that do it so some data ought to be available.

I agree one can cherry pick a statistic, but I would rather someone cherry pick one than make one up. At least there is a methodology to question.

 

[hornadylnl]

I believe my post had as much relevance to the OP as did the your post advocating state car inspections. Did I bring inspections or did you? Regardless of who did, you keep bringing it up and if it has to do with the OP then questioning you about it should be on an equal level.

I suppose if you offered statistics to back up the assertion that state inspections would decrease fatalities there would be something to discuss. There are states that do it so some data ought to be available.

I agree one can cherry pick a statistic, but I would rather someone cherry pick one than make one up. At least there is a methodology to question.

Isn't the assertion being made that state fire inspections make concerts safer? If one is an advocate for one, why not the other? It's all about public safety, right?

 

[foszoe]

Isn't the assertion being made that state fire inspections make concerts safer? If one is an advocate for one, why not the other? It's all about public safety, right?

The difference between us, as I see it is I DON'T know if state fire inspections are required to make them safer or not. SOME are asserting that the private sector can perform inspections on venues to make them AS safe as the public sector. You ARE convinced. I am looking for evidence to change the current system. You seem to view that concern as a desire to put gov't in charge of more and more, I don't hold that view.

Those that simply say the private sector can do it better, I would like to believe but can't, because in my limited experience, government inspections have begun after private companies decided that a certain amount of risk ie loss of life is ok. (Thinking coal companies).

Those that say I am responsible are the hardest ones for me to understand because I think at some point SOMEONE has to set standards that others can reasonably expect. If I was able to wire all the plugs in my house with 440 for some strange reason and use a 120 receptacle as a connector, well I find it hard to accept that before plugging in an appliance, someone is RESPONSIBLE to ask me what Voltage level I wired my house outlets.

 

[hornadylnl]

The difference between us, as I see it is I DON'T know if state fire inspections are required to make them safer or not. SOME are asserting that the private sector can perform inspections on venues to make them AS safe as the public sector. You ARE convinced. I am looking for evidence to change the current system. You seem to view that concern as a desire to put gov't in charge of more and more, I don't hold that view.

Those that simply say the private sector can do it better, I would like to believe but can't, because in my limited experience, government inspections have began after private companies decided that a certain amount of risk ie loss of life is ok. (Thinking coal companies).

Those that say I am responsible are the hardest ones for me to understand because I think at some point SOMEONE has to set standards that others can reasonably expect. If I was able to wire all the plugs in my house with 440 for some strange reason and use a 120 receptacle as a connector, well I find it hard to accept that before plugging in an appliance, someone is RESPONSIBLE to ask me what Voltage level I wired my house outlets.

Let me know how you wired your house with 440.

Problem with many codes and regulations is that they're written and enforced by those with little understanding on the subject matter.

How does one advocate for government inspections in some aspects of our lives while they're indifferent or are against government inspections in others? The general consensus here seems to be that fire marshals are a good thing but range marshals are a bad thing. We should wait til someone is injured or killed before regulations are passed regarding privately owned shooting ranges.

 

[foszoe]

Let me know how you wired your house with 440.

Problem with many codes and regulations is that they're written and enforced by those with little understanding on the subject matter.

How does one advocate for government inspections in some aspects of our lives while they're indifferent or are against government inspections in others? The general consensus here seems to be that fire marshals are a good thing but range marshals are a bad thing. We should wait til someone is injured or killed before regulations are passed regarding privately owned shooting ranges.

Let me try to be plainer as I feel I am not being understood. I am NOT advocating for government inspections in some of our lives yadda yadda....so your firing range, auto, and what ever else you kitchen sink with is not helpful to me at all so perhaps you could try another angle.

I am advocating for maintaining the status quo with incremental changes towards less gov't involvement but based on more evidence than the very prolific libertarians on this forum ever put forth.

The House at 440 was simply an example, and I think you are intelligent enough to understand it but perhaps not forgiving enough to give it a pass. I don't deal with anything less than 69kV.

 

[hornadylnl]

Let me try to be plainer as I feel I am not being understood. I am NOT advocating for government inspections in some of our lives yadda yadda....so your firing range, auto, and what ever else you kitchen sink with is not helpful to me at all so perhaps you could try another angle.

I am advocating for maintaining the status quo with incremental changes towards less gov't involvement but based on more evidence than the very prolific libertarians on this forum ever put forth.

The House at 440 was simply an example, and I think you are intelligent enough to understand it but perhaps not forgiving enough to give it a pass. I don't deal with anything less than 69kV.

I asked about your 440 example because it corresponds to my whole point. We've willingly given up on the whole concept of caveat emptor. Rather than educate myself on the products or services that I'm interested in buying, I abdicate that responsibility to a government agency. Residential wiring is as simple as it gets. But instead of educating myself on what to look for and make sure my stuff is getting done right, I'll demand that the government take over that role.

Because we have those who don't know the difference between an oil dipstick and a tire valve stem, should we all be forced to deal with regulatory bureaucracy when it comes to vehicle repair shops?

There's a hell of a lot of things that I don't know about a hell of a lot of things. If I'm in the market for those things, it's my responsibilty to educate myself or risk getting the shaft. I shouldn't have to think about whether the concert venue I'm in is overcrowded or that the bulding is unsafe. That's somebody else's responsibility.

 

[foszoe]

I asked about your 440 example because it corresponds to my whole point. We've willingly given up on the whole concept of caveat emptor. Rather than educate myself on the products or services that I'm interested in buying, I abdicate that responsibility to a government agency. Residential wiring is as simple as it gets. But instead of educating myself on what to look for and make sure my stuff is getting done right, I'll demand that the government take over that role.

Because we have those who don't know the difference between an oil dipstick and a tire valve stem, should we all be forced to deal with regulatory bureaucracy when it comes to vehicle repair shops?

There's a hell of a lot of things that I don't know about a hell of a lot of things. If I'm in the market for those things, it's my responsibilty to educate myself or risk getting the shaft. I shouldn't have to think about whether the concert venue I'm in is overcrowded or that the bulding is unsafe. That's somebody else's responsibility.

Let me make it clearer please. I am not advocating any more than current government regulatory bureaucracy, period. My concern is implementation. Most libs here do very well at telling me how much the gov't gets in the way and how much better the private sector could handle it, but I don't really see an implementation strategy. That is why when Kirk uses the Utopian label, it sticks for me because the devil is in the details. Starting from where we are, lets just limit the conversation to fire inspections. How would we implement a private inspection process that would make a building AS safe not SAFER than the government regulatory bureaucracy currently does.

 

[hornadylnl]

Let me make it clearer please. I am not advocating any more than current government regulatory bureaucracy, period. My concern is implementation. Most libs here do very well at telling me how much the gov't gets in the way and how much better the private sector could handle it, but I don't really see an implementation strategy. That is why when Kirk uses the Utopian label, it sticks for me because the devil is in the details. Starting from where we are, lets just limit the conversation to fire inspections. How would we implement a private inspection process that would make a building AS safe not SAFER than the government regulatory bureaucracy currently does.

The status quo is comfortable.

It's been pointed out these tragedies occur in spite fire inspections. Nobody cares, stay the course.

One personal example was given here of inspection fraud regarding vehicles. Fire inspectors couldn't possibly commit fraud. Nobody cares, stay the course.

The reason I bring up other types of inspections is that logically, if fire inspections save lives, we should inspect everything. But the disenguine among us want fire inspections while keeping big brother out of their business.

As a Home owner, there is 0 benefit to having a house fire. I wired my house and it benefitted me personally to do it right. Who has a bigger interest in ensuring my house doesn't burn down? Me or an inspector?

If I as a business owner am held liable for the safety of my customers to the point of being sued penniless, what financial responsibilty does a government inspector bear when he misses something on an inspection that ultimately leads to someone's death? What is the recourse when the government inspector gets it wrong? Nothing? Then what's the point?

 

[foszoe]

The status quo is comfortable.

It's been pointed out these tragedies occur in spite fire inspections. Nobody cares, stay the course.

One personal example was given here of inspection fraud regarding vehicles. Fire inspectors couldn't possibly commit fraud. Nobody cares, stay the course.

The reason I bring up other types of inspections is that logically, if fire inspections save lives, we should inspect everything. But the disenguine among us want fire inspections while keeping big brother out of their business.

As a Home owner, there is 0 benefit to having a house fire. I wired my house and it benefitted me personally to do it right. Who has a bigger interest in ensuring my house doesn't burn down? Me or an inspector?

If I as a business owner am held liable for the safety of my customers to the point of being sued penniless, what financial responsibilty does a government inspector bear when he misses something on an inspection that ultimately leads to someone's death? What is the recourse when the government inspector gets it wrong? Nothing? Then what's the point?

I will leave aside the logically following because I don't think its proven that the generalization follows.

Perhaps, I see your implementation strategy but I am not certain.

The stick would be court system instead of gov't fines? If so the follow up question is who polices the courts and who enforces the laws and the decisions rendered by the court?

If the answer to my first question is no, then there is no reason to answer the rest.

 

[hornadylnl]

I will leave aside the logically following because I don't think its proven that the generalization follows.

Perhaps, I see your implementation strategy but I am not certain.

The stick would be court system instead of gov't fines? If so the follow up question is who polices the courts and who enforces the laws and the decisions rendered by the court?

If the answer to my first question is no, then there is no reason to answer the rest.

If you can prove damages against you, what's wrong with civil court? I think laws should be based on property rights. If someone harms your property, the courts are the proper recourse.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Isn't the assertion being made that state fire inspections make concerts safer?

No, just that the state has the power to do so. Of course the state has an enormous power to do lots of things. Does not mean it should.

 

[hornadylnl]

No, just that the state has the power to do so. Of course the state has an enormous power to do lots of things. Does not mean it should.

Kirk, your rule of law arguments appear to be nothing more than "I support the law, I'm just not going to say so".

So will te rural Zionsville residents who support this state power be quiet when their back yard ranges are regulated out of existence?

Is it really that difficult to understand that when you grant the government power to do one thing, you're giving it the power to do something I may not like? If I call to complain about my neighbors grass causing me harm, does he not have the right to complain about the noise and possible dangers of my back yard range?

I don't involve the government in things I don't approve of because I don't want to arm them with the weapons they will use on me.

 

[Roscoe38]

And Mr. Martin surfaces again.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Is it really that difficult to understand that when you grant the government power to do one thing, you're giving it the power to do something I may not like?

The Constitution allows the government to have this power.

Whether one is in favor or against this or that regulation constitutional arguments are distinct from policy arguments. I would argue that less regulation is more but understand that in order to protect property there will have to be regulations of some flavor, what they are and how they are done are always concerns.

The L. Neil Smith Propertarian arguments so advanced on INGO are nothing more than science fiction.

 

[hornadylnl]

The Constitution allows the government to have this power.

Whether one is in favor or against this or that regulation constitutional arguments are distinct from policy arguments. I would argue that less regulation is more but understand that in order to protect property there will have to be regulations of some flavor, what they are and how they are done are always concerns.

The L. Neil Smith Propertarian arguments so advanced on INGO are nothing more than science fiction.

Zionsville rural residents, enjoy your ranges while you still have them.

 

[rambone]

Was L. Neil Smith an advocate of requiring that the government to have probable cause or a warrant before performing searches on private property? I'm asking because I still haven't read any of his books. Not sure why Kirk has posted his name 10+ times in this thread.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Was L. Neil Smith an advocate of requiring that the government to have probable cause or a warrant before performing searches on private property? I'm asking because I still haven't read any of his books. Not sure why Kirk has posted his name 10+ times in this thread.

I don't know, but it is making me want to get one of his books and read it

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Not sure why Kirk has posted his name 10+ times in this thread.

Because this is the origin of the "meye rye-its" school of property law, Propertarianism. There is no basis is the law for it. It comes from science fiction.

The Rights Industry of desires becoming wants becoming needs becoming rights is not confined to the Left.

 

[churchmouse]

Zionsville rural residents, enjoy your ranges while you still have them.

Did I hear correctly that the Libs in Ziontucky are trying to close down shooting on private property????

 

[rambone]

Because this is the origin of the "meye rye-its" school of property law, Propertarianism.

I'm pretty sure there were people resisting tyrants from forcefully "inspecting" their property long before any living person wrote about it.

You still haven't addressed how your "meye say-feety" school of nannyism addresses probable cause and warrants. Probably because you know that your little inspections completely roll over those rights.