Illegal to play live music in Indiana without a permit from IN Homeland Security

[Kirk Freeman]

Then why do concert venues deserve an extra level of regulations than a range owner does?

I don't know about "extra" but there are different regulations.

Concerts=fire and weather.

Ranges=IDEM.

Same duty of care as to their customers.

 

[steveh_131]

Then why do concert venues deserve an extra level of regulations than a range owner does?

Because this isn't science fiction. L. Neil Smith. You can't throw wolverines at people. Firefly? Nonsense. You have a duty of grass.

 

[thompal]

they could just use Pro Tools 2 track(or any other 2 track main summing bus) stereo out feed that is digital and off set 1/64 a second delay, and now it is not live and the eye and ear can't tell the difference.
it is like the delay system @ deer creek, all the speakers out hanging on the rafters at where the edge of the lawn stars, have to be set on a delay so the sound coming from the stage hits at the same time as the speakers pointed at the crowd in the lawn/grass seats.
in the music biz even live, is not "really" live. all the new live digital mixing consoles can pretty much manipulate the sound any way the foh guy wants to make it sound like, even time compression.

Since all digital consoles have an inherent latency, nothing you hear at a concert is really "live," is it??
(I HATE digital consoles!!, but not for that reason)

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Firefly? Nonsense.

Yes!

 

[foszoe]

So I have to be a liberal? Way to make a valid argument.

To answer your question, no I don't support the NIMBY mindset. Landfills have to go somewhere don't they? Are we going to blast our trash to outer space so that nobody has to have the misfortune of living near a landfill? Is the landfill polluting my water supply or having trash blown into my property? If yes, there is demonstrable damage against me and I can take it to court. If the only damage is to my sensibilities, than tough **** to me. Who am I to say that they can't put a landfill next to me so somebody else should be stuck with it?

A few years ago, the landowner next door spread dried chicken ****. The smell and flies were atrocious for several days. That's part of country living. I didn't call anyone to complain about it. I leave that farmer alone and he leaves me alone. I guess it's a concept the city folks don't understand.

Didn't call you a liberal.

Not making an argument just trying to understand your position because your posts don't outline it well enough for me.

What argument do you think I am trying to make? What conclusion am I driving at and what premises am I using?

 

[thompal]

Yes, 10 years ago this year was the Great White fire in Rhode Island. Your speculation was confirmed then.

Did a RI agency get sued, or was it only The Station's owner, and Great White and their manager?

 

[HoughMade]

Since all digital consoles have an inherent latency, nothing you hear at a concert is really "live," is it??
(I HATE digital consoles!!, but not for that reason)

Then we have the fact that sound travels at around 1,100 fps at sea level and light travels 983,000,000 feet per second so regardless of amplification, not only is NOTHING live, but nothing is synchronized. :mind blown:

....wait a minute....the word "live" never appears in the Code defining what a "Regulated place of amusement or entertainment" is.

Well junior lawyers, back to the drawing board.

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

^^^^ This.

There have been enough problems in the past to prove that fire marshals are need to keep the public safe. I have been a been a union stage hand and worked hundreds of concerts. The promoters only worry about money. State fair tragedy ring a bell? People are free to come and go but if the choose to "risk it" they shouldn't have an undue burden placed on them by overcrowding the venue.

I was at that state fair tragedy two year ago, four rows back in fact. But it was not due to overcrowding the venue, but lack of properly engineered design IMO or at least the use of, lack of, proper building materials for the rigging. Once those guy-wires snapped, it was all over. The management company of the act came out on stage to tell the crowd to "hold on and we'll get the show started in a couple of minutes". The storm moved in quickly and I had told my wife to start walking. When I heard the rigging creaking and snapping, that is when I told her to run.

Events held in venues not normally made for that type of event, (music, rally, whatever) require some type of oversight to ensure the safety to some degree of the occupants or attendees. That's why the tickets have that really small fine print on them that says the event promoter isn't responsible for damages beyond their control.

 

[hornadylnl]

Didn't call you a liberal.

Not making an argument just trying to understand your position because your posts don't outline it well enough for me.

What argument do you think I am trying to make? What conclusion am I driving at and what premises am I using?

Usually the term lib is reserved for liberal.

My point is that in order for me to protect my property rights from over zealous neighbors, I must be willing to give up my power to be over zealous against my neighbor's right to his property.

The collective doesn't want that. They want to be able to dictate what their neighbors can and can't do on their property but think their neighbors shouldn't be able to return the favor.

If I can prevent you from putting a car on blocks in your front yard, you can prevent me from putting a range in my back yard.

People can't expect to eat their cake and have it to.

 

[hornadylnl]

Did a RI agency get sued, or was it only The Station's owner, and Great White and their manager?

Of course the state wasn't liable.

It's like saying you must buy my insurance but I'm not obligated to and never will pay a claim.

 

[hornadylnl]

I was at that state fair tragedy two year ago, four rows back in fact. But it was not due to overcrowding the venue, but lack of properly engineered design IMO or at least the use of, lack of, proper building materials for the rigging. Once those guy-wires snapped, it was all over. The management company of the act came out on stage to tell the crowd to "hold on and we'll get the show started in a couple of minutes". The storm moved in quickly and I had told my wife to start walking. When I heard the rigging creaking and snapping, that is when I told her to run.

Events held in venues not normally made for that type of event, (music, rally, whatever) require some type of oversight to ensure the safety to some degree of the occupants or attendees. That's why the tickets have that really small fine print on them that says the event promoter isn't responsible for damages beyond their control.

So there was zero oversight of that stage before it collapsed?

 

[thompal]

No, that's why the rules for both are also different.

Both require a "permit" from Homeland Security. Are they THAT different??

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

Then we have the fact that sound travels at around 1,100 fps at sea level and light travels 983,000,000 feet per second so regardless of amplification, not only is NOTHING live, but nothing is synchronized. :mind blown:

....wait a minute....the word "live" never appears in the Code defining what a "Regulated place of amusement or entertainment" is.

Well junior lawyers, back to the drawing board.

...and don't forget that fact that your definition needs to be backed up by what the temperature is at sea level and that your speed of light refers to light traveling in a vacuum.

Add that to the code too

 

[hornadylnl]

I don't know about "extra" but there are different regulations.

Concerts=fire and weather.

Ranges=IDEM.

Same duty of care as to their customers.

So what inspection did this range owner receive?
Man gets 60 days in shooting death » Kokomo Tribune; Kokomo, Indiana

 

[Kirk Freeman]

So what inspection did this range owner receive?
Man gets 60 days in shooting death » Kokomo Tribune; Kokomo, Indiana

At which indoor range did that transpire? I am not familiar with Howard County.

Is that Morgan County? There is an indoor range in Morgan County???

 

[88GT]

Do the "needs" of the collective trump the owner's right to use his property in a manner he sees fit?

Is the rule conducive to a free and voluntary society?

I think perhaps word meaning has become blurred in our philosophical discussions. There is a difference between the collective and the individuals collectively. The collective has no individuals. It is the smallest entity. It is the unit of society. The individuals collectively is an entirely different beast. If the word "collective" and its variations sends you into apoplectic fit, I would suggest that you either have dug too far into your hole of principle to see anything but your own perception of reality or you need to get some more practice in the language arts. (You is used generically here, as I'm quite sure Ram is in good company.) The latter is the total of all individuals, being singled out for no reason. Application of the law to the individuals collectively is the height of rule of law and equality of the law.

Is this an issue of semantics? Perhaps. But if you don't think that's important, let me present Exhibit A: "shall" and "may."

The essence of tyranny is the destruction of property rights. Ownership of your self. Ownership of your labor. Ownership of your land.

I agree with this.

When some third party is demanding permission to "allow" the "owner" to do things on their own property, it is absolutely statist.

I do not agree with this.

Live music in a bar = radioactive waste in my neighbor's backyard?

When the argument is made that ANY attempt to control the person through his actions (self) or his property is functionally equal, aka absolute tyranny, yes, they are exactly the same.

I don't necessarily have any issue with a local fire marshal setting some standards for occupation of buildings, as they do in most places. I do have an issue with a state agency requiring permits that the locals do not. The state needs to be much smaller and unobtrusive in its dealings. IDHS needs to be disbanded and stop interfering in things that should be solely a local matter, if anything. There should be no need for a permit for events such as this. This is simply a money and power grab.

And if OP could have just presented the entire issue in these terms, we wouldn't have to have 200+ posts of school yard arguing. Well said, mrJ.

Come on, poisoning a shared water supply has not a damn thing to do with this. If you are polluting other people's resources then your neighbors have a valid complaint against your actions.

We're talking about prohibiting music, people. In your own building. MUSIC.

If you wish to keep the discussion on topic, it would help to frame the discussion in more realistic and accurate terms that reflect reality and not your own version of the way things should be. You have a tendency that is well-documented to make fantastic mountains out of molehills. The irony is that you have legitimate gripes most times, but you present them in such hysterical, hyperbolic fashion that anyone conditioned to your style now has to look for the nugget of truth in your fiction.

umm telling other people what they can or cannot do on their property (that doesnt hurt others) is not self governance.....remember the individual is the smallest minority and the one guy in zionsville with a brand new gun range that he spent two years working on and paying for now has his individual rights in the hands of a bunch of angry soccer moms....

Um, yeah, it is. That's what self governance is. We operate democratically, which means majority rules subject to limitations imposed by various vehicles. Violations of those limitations aside, it is entirely within the realm of legal and right for a community to decide that X is prohibited on private property.

Why? Why do I have that duty? Do I have a duty to provide them with armed guards? Do I have a duty to offer breast cancer screening at the door? Do I have a duty to make sure they have their government mandated vaccines on the way in? Do I have a duty to make sure they are eating a healthy, balanced diet based on the government food pyramid?

Why are you so terrified of liberty? Are you incapable of checking for an acceptable number of fire doors before you attend a live concert?

I happen to agree with you, but your last questions diminish the power of your argument. It's a fallacy to claim that someone with an opposing view is afraid of liberty. And, yes, I am incapable of checking for an acceptable number of fire doors because I don't know what an acceptable number is. Do you? Furthermore, that number is only valid with the presumption of a given maximum number of individuals present. Unless the individual the attendance is advertised and updated real-time, it would do me no good to know one bit of information if I didn't know the other.

I think you know I fall much closer to your side than the other, but I do not think that calling any and all regulation of public places for safety standards is nanny, statist, or tyrannical.

Have you even an inkling of the thousand ways that these babysitters have helped to ensure your life, good health, and safety? Do you really not realize how fortunate you are to have been born and to live in this country with better medical care, cleaner water, cleaner air, safer buildings, safer food, safer roads, etc, etc, on and on than almost anywhere else on earth? Do you even have a clue what kind of nasty crap that industries would be venting to the air, discharging into the water, or burying in the ground if there was no oversight? Would you ever eat at a restaurant, or out of a can if there was no oversight?

And you seem to honestly think that this way of doing things, that has very well been responsible for saving you from harm a hundred times over, is not only invalid, but ineffective, since you know that it hasn't been 100% successful.

I guess we should all wish to be so intrepid and brave as to feel that we don't need no stinking regulations.

Logical fallacy. The assumption that their existence makes life safer notwithstanding (one that I do not concede as verifiable), you have made the assumption that life would be necessarily less safe without them because there would be no other entity to fill the role they play.

Do you have any idea what the power of public persuasion can do to a business? If businesses are polluting, they are causing harm. There are civil courts to address that issue. And if the "collective" found it so distasteful and unacceptable, they have far more power to control than government. Yes, I would eat at a restaurant or a can with no oversight. There are conditions applicable, but I do not feel that the safety exists in the government oversight.

I see the point the horned one is making. To use a landfill as response is a bit of a push yes. Junk yards and land fills have to jump through all the EPA hoops before they go to council. Then the area residents have a chance to get involved as there are legal and environmental issues to deal with so these are not good to use in this case.

I set no edict on my neighbors if they keep their property up to area standards. If you live in a community as we do there is a responsibility to the other folks to keep up as to maintenance etc for value. In some areas it is code...in others it is honorable at least.

In the country...it is your land. JMHO.

Horn makes no distinction based on such regulatory hoop-jumping. (Or if he does, he would have reached the pinnacle of hypocrisy.) So the landfill is an exact parallel to any other example that involves one man imposing his will on his neighbor either by direct or indirect (.gov) action. It would be an interesting case study to have a hazmat disposal site open up next door and see his response. Particularly when the ground water became contaminated.

 

[hornadylnl]

At which indoor range did that transpire? I am not familiar with Howard County.

It was at a guys private range. Type indiana shooting range stray into google. You get several articles on police ranges with strays leaving the range as well.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Ok, will do.

 

[thompal]

There may have been people whose neighbor had radioactive waste and they never were harmed, and may never even knew it. And there have been some people who went to a venue with an improperly set-up live music act and were burned to death.

There was nothing wrong with the "set up" of Great White in RI. That resulted from the decision-making of mainly two people: the club owner, who had crap on his walls that was extremely flammable; and the band's Road Manager, who insisted on using pyro, even after seeing the club.

The building was a business, had flammable material on the walls and ceilings, and did not have enough exits. That should have been a matter for LOCAL code enforcement. I fail to see how getting HOMELAND SECURITY involved in that process is an improvement. What is Homeland's Security's job anyway?? I rather thought they existed to defend against terrorists. It baffles me how Homeland Security has gotten involved in every aspect of our lives.

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

So there was zero oversight of that stage before it collapsed?

Can't say if there was zero oversight. It was assembled before that time. There could have been a concert the night before.