Feds coming for privately-owned silver coins

[chizzle]

And it was the act of fraud that got them convicted and sent to prison.



No, it would not be.

Ram, even your own side realizes that the Liberty Dollar case was about fraud. Heck, the Lord High Wookie wrote extensively about it: Liberty Dollar Trial and Coin Value by Bill Rounds

Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both. 18 USC §485

If you want to make silver bars, rods, beads, taels, inter alia, it's just fine, stamp them with Ron Paul, a Wookie, or L. Neil Smith, just don't make them look like U.S. coins and attempt to pass them off as U.S. coins.

Not trying to stir up an argument, just trying to clarify. How exactly would someone be defrauded by purchasing a Liberty Dollar, especially since they had the date on them? I can't see how someone would be defrauded because:

1) The coins are actually made of silver, which is appreciating in value
2) The coins aren't exact copies of the ones made by the US mint
3) The coins clearly show the dates of manufacture, which don't coincide with when the US mint made their version of a Liberty Dollar.
4) Nobody is forcing people to buy them!

Again, not trying to be a jerk, just trying to clarify your position. I've seen a lot of your posts on INGO, and respect that you usually have very reasoned answers.

 

[chizzle]

Also, I'm voting for:

"Rambone" + "Shilling" = "Ramshilling" It would be a piece of solid gold in the shape of a Ram's head.

 

[MinuteMan47]

Also, I'm voting for:

"Rambone" + "Shilling" = "Ramshilling" It would be a piece of solid gold in the shape of a Ram's head.

Instead of Ramshilling, how about Boning....it could be in the shape of.....well, nevermind.

 

[chizzle]

Here's an initial design we can work from...

acsearch.info - The ancient coin search engine

Despite the funny names, keep the designs clean... It's a family establishment here.

 

[rambone]

And it was the act of fraud that got them convicted and sent to prison.

But all the people who currently own Liberty Dollars haven't. The arbitrary round metal tokens should not be confiscated.

Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both. 18 USC §485

Is the inference that the coin they forged is a Peace Dollar? Really?

just don't make them look like U.S. coins and attempt to pass them off as U.S. coins.

I could pick out a Liberty Dollar from a Peace Dollar all day long, without fail. They are notably different.

How exactly would someone be defrauded by purchasing a Liberty Dollar, especially since they had the date on them? I can't see how someone would be defrauded because:

1) The coins are actually made of silver, which is appreciating in value
2) The coins aren't exact copies of the ones made by the US mint
3) The coins clearly show the dates of manufacture, which don't coincide with when the US mint made their version of a Liberty Dollar.
4) Nobody is forcing people to buy them

Not to mention that there is a WEBSITE engraved in the coin!!

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

I can tell you hate Ron Paul and that I'm not going to win you over. I respect your views, even if you don't respect mine.

For those who might have interest, I just heard this NPR program where they interviewed Ron and I thought he did a nice job.

http://youtu.be/CDGM313Iuqs

Your views are interesting. I happen to agree with you (all except the part about hating Ron Paul) but they are not germane to the current discussion.

it's from a kung fu parody from a 7up ad

repped.

Article 1 Section 10 is relevant, thank you for bringing it up.

But I disagree that "States" is a term synonymous with "the people."

The constitution doesn't prohibit people from making coins. Period. Trying to turn this into a constitutional debate was an irrelevant move.

What we are debating is whether or not Von NotHaus counterfeited a design issued by the U.S. Mint.

Or perhaps we could debate where the Feds derive the power to confiscate things from people who have not received due process. There are millions of dollars worth of Liberty Dollars in circulation.

You can't fix stupid.

Despite what some people, in and out of government, would contend the US does not have a lock on the word "dollar". Other countries also have dollars as their currency. Calling something a dollar doesn't make it an FRN or a copy of one.

No, the federal government doesn't have a lock on the word "dollar", but they do have the exclusive power to coin money and the authority and obligation to prevent counterfeiting.

Not trying to stir up an argument, just trying to clarify. How exactly would someone be defrauded by purchasing a Liberty Dollar, especially since they had the date on them? I can't see how someone would be defrauded because:

1) The coins are actually made of silver, which is appreciating in value
2) The coins aren't exact copies of the ones made by the US mint
3) The coins clearly show the dates of manufacture, which don't coincide with when the US mint made their version of a Liberty Dollar.
4) Nobody is forcing people to buy them!

Again, not trying to be a jerk, just trying to clarify your position. I've seen a lot of your posts on INGO, and respect that you usually have very reasoned answers.

1) The coins may or may not be made of silver. A coin minted by the government is certain to contain the proper amount of precious metals. Do you know why they put ridges on the sides of coins? Because people used to shave them down and reduce the amount of gold or silver in the coin.
2) They don't have to be exact. They are coined as money and therefore violate the Constitution and federal law.
3) Irrelevent. See #2.
4) Also irrelevent

It's really not a matter of being defrauded or not. It's a matter that they coined money in violation of the Constitution and federal law. That's what the jury ruled.

 

[chizzle]

You can't fix stupid.

No need to be rude.

So if you interpret the Constitution to read that states or individuals are in violation of the Constitution if they create coins, how do you answer Rambone's comment on UPS and FedEx?

"True, coining money is one legitimate function of the Federal government. But it does not establish any absolutes. The Feds are given the power to establish a post office, but that doesn't mean that FedEx and UPS are constitutionally banned from existing. The Feds may raise an army, but that doesn't stop defense contractors from doing the same.

So it is false that the Feds have a monopoly on currency. South Carolina had a bill to create their own currency earlier in 2011."

It would seem if you were philosophically consistent, that you'd have to be against the Liberty Dollar and against the existence of UPS / FedEx.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

No need to be rude.

So if you interpret the Constitution to read that states or individuals are in violation of the Constitution if they create coins, how do you answer Rambone's comment on UPS and FedEx?

"True, coining money is one legitimate function of the Federal government. But it does not establish any absolutes. The Feds are given the power to establish a post office, but that doesn't mean that FedEx and UPS are constitutionally banned from existing. The Feds may raise an army, but that doesn't stop defense contractors from doing the same.

So it is false that the Feds have a monopoly on currency. South Carolina had a bill to create their own currency earlier in 2011."

It would seem if you were philosophically consistent, that you'd have to be against the Liberty Dollar and against the existence of UPS / FedEx.

First don't dilude yourself. He is an anarchist who has no more use for the Constitution than any other law passed at any level of government.

Neither UPS or FedEx provides mail service. Neither may deliver non-urgent letters nor may they use postal boxes. They are both shipping companies. They are both held back by the postal monopoly created by the Constitution. The federal government constantly scrutinizes their business plans and products to ensure the monopoly remains intact.

 

[Titanium Man]

Next thing you know, the A.G. will determine that incremental pieces of brass, all sized the same, can be considered currency, so he can ban the ownership of bullets.

 

[J_Wales]

Come for silver.
Leave with lead.

 

[rambone]

Isn't the whole point of counterfeiting to make your coin indistinguishable from the original?

Is this the closest coin that the Liberty Dollar purportedly mimics?

 

[rambone]

First don't dilude yourself. He is an anarchist who has no more use for the Constitution than any other law passed at any level of government.

Be honest. You are kinda turned on by the thought of Big Federal Government taking citizens' coins.

 

[jsharmon7]

Whew! For a second I thought the Feds were really coming for all privately owned silver coins, but then I realized that Rambone started this thread and it must just be another misleading title. I'm glad I was right about that...again.

 

[rambone]

Whew! For a second I thought the Feds were really coming for all privately owned silver coins, but then I realized that Rambone started this thread and it must just be another misleading title. I'm glad I was right about that...again.

Are they not privately-owned silver coins?????

 

[jsharmon7]

How about "Feds coming for counterfeit money?" You know exactly how your title sounds. I don't know what you do for a living, but I'm thinking you must be the guy who writes descriptions for China-mart products:

 

[rambone]

How about "Feds coming for counterfeit money?" You know exactly how your title sounds. I don't know what you do for a living, but I'm thinking you must be the guy who writes descriptions for China-mart products:

I don't agree that they are counterfeit anything. We can all hopefully agree that they are privately-owned silver coins.

 

[J_Wales]

Before the idea of the feds confiscating silver coins is completely dismissed, don't forget that they confiscated gold coins, gold bullion and gold certificates in 1933 under Roosevelt's executive order number 6102

 

[rambone]

Before the idea of the feds confiscating silver coins is completely dismissed, don't forget that they confiscated gold coins, gold bullion and gold certificates in 1933 under Roosevelt's executive order number 6102

Couldn't we just call it "Roosevelt collects illegal money"?

Are you some kind of spin doctor?

 

[J_Wales]

Not trying to get in the middle of an argument.

I'm simply pointing out that the government has confiscated precious metals before. There is absolutely no reason to believe they would not attempt to do so again.

Unfortunately, many are not aware of what has already happened in the pass and simply dismiss it as something that would not happen (again) in the future.

 

[J_Wales]

One of the most laughable claims in the prosecution of the Liberty Dollar case was the claim that the activity lessened the value of the US dollar through providing an alternative currency..... as if QE1, QE2 and now potentially QE3 has not already beat the crap out of the value of the dollar. The difference is that it is okay when the government chooses to do it. It is not okay when citizens in the market do it.