Feds coming for privately-owned silver coins

[chizzle]

Coining money is the absolute purview of the federal government.
Do you believe in and support the Constitution or not?

I believe, as do many others, that the government has been far too busy creating money out of thin air, with nothing to back it but the "good faith and credit of the USA". Here's a graph showing how we're trying to print our way out of the problem:

File:Currency component of the US money supply 1959-2007.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While I'm not going to start making coins in my garage, I see this as a "crime" with no one harmed. Granted, I can understand if the .gov would tell the guy to quit putting the word "dollar" on his coins, but I can't see the harm of a person quantifying and selling a set amount of precious metal. I also can't see the harm in people using it to trade.

Many Ron Paul supporters would see no harm of people "creating money" if they are simply stamping out fixed amounts of precious metals that people can use to trade. I believe the government gets concerned because it they can't devalue it with continued paper money creation and thus pay for all the entitlements and wars that we can't afford. Here is Ron's proposed bill to repeal the legal tender laws that makes it illegal:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h112-1098

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

I believe, as do many others, that the government has been far too busy creating money out of thin air, with nothing to back it but the "good faith and credit of the USA". Here's a graph showing how we're trying to print our way out of the problem:

File:Currency component of the US money supply 1959-2007.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While I'm not going to start making coins in my garage, I see this as a "crime" with no one harmed. Granted, I can understand if the .gov would tell the guy to quit putting the word "dollar" on his coins, but I can't see the harm of a person quantifying and selling a set amount of precious metal. I also can't see the harm in people using it to trade.

Many Ron Paul supporters would see no harm of people "creating money" if they are simply stamping out fixed amounts of precious metals that people can use to trade. I believe the government gets concerned because it they can't devalue it with continued paper money creation and thus pay for all the entitlements and wars that we can't afford. Here is Ron's proposed bill to repeal the legal tender laws that makes it illegal:

Read The Bill: H.R. 1098 - GovTrack.us

So you're saying that many Ron Paul supporters reject the Constitution? Or just the bits they don't like?

 

[rambone]

Coining money is the absolute purview of the federal government.
Do you believe in and support the Constitution or not?

Let's review the text then.

Article 1, Section 8

The Congress shall have Power To [...]

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

True, coining money is one legitimate function of the Federal government. But it does not establish any absolutes. The Feds are given the power to establish a post office, but that doesn't mean that FedEx and UPS are constitutionally banned from existing. The Feds may raise an army, but that doesn't stop defense contractors from doing the same.

So it is false that the Feds have a monopoly on currency. South Carolina had a bill to create their own currency earlier in 2011.

The only legitimate point of interest the Feds should have in the Liberty Dollar is to see that it is not a forged version of their own currency. And since it is distinctly different from any form of U.S. minted currency, past or present, I think the claims of counterfeit are bogus. Liberty Dollar was a good company and the owner should be freed.

I can't even begin to wrap my head around this idea that the Feds could hunt down privately-owned silver purchased during the company's 11-year history.

 

[chizzle]

So you're saying that many Ron Paul supporters reject the Constitution? Or just the bits they don't like?

"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;"

I would say that many Ron Paul supporters reject the notion that the government can create wealth out of thin air, without creating inflation and making our money (and the entitlements that the government created) worth less. To me, they're trying to say 2+2=5, and no matter how many times they say it, it just doesn't add up. The fact that the "value" of gold is going "up" just proves that the value of the dollar is falling as compared to global commodities. If you don't like the gold example, check out the cost of copper, lead, beans, corn, oil, gasoline, etc. It's especially shocking that these commodities continue to rise in price considering that we're in a recession / depression right now and demands are lower than normal. As we've seen the money supply DOUBLE in the past 15 years, we've seen a corresponding increase in price for the cost of these global commodities.

While the constitution does permit the goverment to create a currency, I don't see the part in the constitution where it declares competing currencies illegal... I also don't see any benefit in jailing a man because he wants to print somebody's face on a metal disc. Again, I can understand if they don't want the word "dollar" used, but past that, I see no harm.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Let's review the text then.True, coining money is one legitimate function of the Federal government. But it does not establish any absolutes. The Feds are given the power to establish a post office, but that doesn't mean that FedEx and UPS are constitutionally banned from existing. The Feds may raise an army, but that doesn't stop defense contractors from doing the same.

So it is false that the Feds have a monopoly on currency. South Carolina had a bill to create their own currency earlier in 2011.

The only legitimate point of interest the Feds should have in the Liberty Dollar is to see that it is not a forged version of their own currency. And since it is distinctly different from any form of U.S. minted currency, past or present, I think the claims of counterfeit are bogus. Liberty Dollar was a good company and the owner should be freed.

I can't even begin to wrap my head around this idea that the Feds could hunt down privately-owned silver purchased during the company's 11-year history.

Oh, but read on Weedhopper.

Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

The states (and therefore the people) cannot coin money per the Constitution, and you are as usual wrong on your assessment of what the only legitimate point of interest the federal government has.

Now I don't give a rat's ass about liberty dollars. I think it's fools money, when a chunk of pure silver or pure gold has the same value yet tweakers were paying more than they should have because it said liberty dollar on it. But to make the claim that the federal government has no interest and should leave this guy and counterfeit coin alone is ludicrous.

Liberty Dollars have been determined through the judicial process to have been sold in violation of the Constitution and federal laws regulating the coining of money as a power granted directly from the Constitution. I don't see how you can claim to support the Constitution if you disagree that it is the exclusive purview of the federal government to coin money.

"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;"

I would say that many Ron Paul supporters reject the notion that the government can create wealth out of thin air, without creating inflation and making our money (and the entitlements that the government created) worth less. To me, they're trying to say 2+2=5, and no matter how many times they say it, it just doesn't add up. The fact that the "value" of gold is going "up" just proves that the value of the dollar is falling as compared to global commodities. If you don't like the gold example, check out the cost of copper, lead, beans, corn, oil, gasoline, etc. It's especially shocking that these commodities continue to rise in price considering that we're in a recession / depression right now and demands are lower than normal. As we've seen the money supply DOUBLE in the past 15 years, we've seen a corresponding increase in price for the cost of these global commodities.

While the constitution does permit the goverment to create a currency, I don't see the part in the constitution where it declares competing currencies illegal... I also don't see any benefit in jailing a man because he wants to print somebody's face on a metal disc. Again, I can understand if they don't want the word "dollar" used, but past that, I see no harm.

Section 10 should clear that up for you. Everything you said before that was irrelevent. Everything after that shows ignorance of why the federal government was granted the exclusive power to coin money and was tasked with preventing the counterfeiting thereof.

 

[chizzle]

Can you explain what "Weedhopper" means?

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Can you explain what "Weedhopper" means?

Reps to the first person to answer this correctly.

 

[chizzle]

I can tell you hate Ron Paul and that I'm not going to win you over. I respect your views, even if you don't respect mine.

+1 and repped.

The fact that he gets no earned media is indicative of the fact that he does nothing and says nothing interesting enough to viewers to deserve earned media. He appeals to a small percentage of Americans, and media outlets aren't going to give him a free pass.

The reason no one gives him [STRIKE]a realistic[/STRIKE] any chance of receiving the nomination is his positions on major issues. I agree with his basic stance on the Fed - but he can't or won't sell it in an elevator pitch. His isolationist stance is over the top and America isn't prepared to have a discussion around his drug position. A Republican kicking our military has a better chance of getting ice water in hell than the party's nomination for President. The bottom line is that when you want to create a market you have to sell the product. "Because I'm right" isn't selling, it's snarky.

If Paul want media attention he should pay for it. They're called political ads for a reason.

For those who might have interest, I just heard this NPR program where they interviewed Ron and I thought he did a nice job.

[ame="http://youtu.be/CDGM313Iuqs"]http://youtu.be/CDGM313Iuqs[/ame]

 

[Lead Head]

I wonder if the feds will come after bitcoin holders/users too.

I have a few Chuck E. Cheese coins/tokens. Does that count ?

 

[snowrs]

it's from a kung fu parody from a 7up ad

 

[rambone]

Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

The states (and therefore the people) cannot coin money per the Constitution, and you are as usual wrong on your assessment of what the only legitimate point of interest the federal government has.

Article 1 Section 10 is relevant, thank you for bringing it up.

But I disagree that "States" is a term synonymous with "the people."

I don't see how you can claim to support the Constitution if you disagree that it is the exclusive purview of the federal government to coin money.

The constitution doesn't prohibit people from making coins. Period. Trying to turn this into a constitutional debate was an irrelevant move.

What we are debating is whether or not Von NotHaus counterfeited a design issued by the U.S. Mint.

Or perhaps we could debate where the Feds derive the power to confiscate things from people who have not received due process. There are millions of dollars worth of Liberty Dollars in circulation.

 

[rambone]

The Rambone Dollar

This is what the Von NotHaus case teaches us. If I printed this design on a napkin it could be considered a counterfeit Federal Reserve Note. It doesn't ****ing matter that it doesn't look like any existing design. If I asked someone to trade with me, it would be considered fraud. And millions of people who willingly bought/traded these notes could have them confiscated without trial.

Problem?

 

[chizzle]

This is what the Von NotHaus case teaches us. If I printed this design on a napkin it could be considered a counterfeit Federal Reserve Note. It doesn't ****ing matter that it doesn't look like any existing design. If I asked someone to trade with me, it would be considered fraud. And millions of people who willingly bought/traded these notes could have them confiscated without trial.

Problem?

Ahh, but what if I trade you GOLD for it?

 

[RockofStrength]

Ahh, but what if I trade you GOLD for it?

All Rambone dollars are backed by the full faith and credit of Rambone.

 

[chizzle]

All Rambone dollars are backed by the full faith and credit of Rambone.

I think it's a good business model, I just think we need a better name than "Rambone Dollars" if we're going to get SemperFi on board... I'm trying to combine "Rambone" with "Rupee", or "Ruble", etc. to get something funny sounding...

 

[RockofStrength]

I think it's a good business model, I just think we need a better name than "Rambone Dollars" if we're going to get SemperFi on board... I'm trying to combine "Rambone" with "Rupee", or "Ruble", etc. to get something funny sounding...

Rambles?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

So it makes much more sense to target the act of harming another person, rather than punishing people for the mere possession of the "contraband."

And it was the act of fraud that got them convicted and sent to prison.

If I printed this design on a napkin it could be considered a counterfeit Federal Reserve Note.

No, it would not be.

Ram, even your own side realizes that the Liberty Dollar case was about fraud. Heck, the Lord High Wookie wrote extensively about it: Liberty Dollar Trial and Coin Value by Bill Rounds

Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both. 18 USC §485

If you want to make silver bars, rods, beads, taels, inter alia, it's just fine, stamp them with Ron Paul, a Wookie, or L. Neil Smith, just don't make them look like U.S. coins and attempt to pass them off as U.S. coins.

 

[chizzle]

"Rambone" + "Reichsmark" (Germany) = Ramsmark?

"Rambone" + "Franc" (Switzerland) = Ramsfranc? (kinda sounds dirty)

"Rambone" + "Dong" (I swear it's a real currency from Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam) = ....

 

[mrjarrell]

Despite what some people, in and out of government, would contend the US does not have a lock on the word "dollar". Other countries also have dollars as their currency. Calling something a dollar doesn't make it an FRN or a copy of one.

 

[MinuteMan47]

WEEDhopper.....instead of GRASShopper, dude.