Feds coming for privately-owned silver coins

[steveh_131]

You can't fix stupid.

-1 for responding to a reasoned argument with name-calling.

 

[jsharmon7]

-1 for responding to a reasoned argument with name-calling.

Apparently he didn't see the "reasoned argument" in what was posted.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Shouldn't these be illegal then? It has a denomination on it making it worth 1/4 of a dollar

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Shouldn't these be illegal then? It has a denomination on it making it worth 1/4 of a dollar

If they were being used in commerce in violation of the Constitution, then yes they would be illegal. But they are not. They are game tokens with no intrinsic or redeemable value that can only be used on the Chuck E Cheese premises. You can't trade them for milk at the Handy Dandy.

 

[steveh_131]

Apparently he didn't see the "reasoned argument" in what was posted.

You can't fix stupid

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Isn't the whole point of counterfeiting to make your coin indistinguishable from the original?

No, read the statute again. It does not have to be indistinguishable.

Shouldn't these be illegal then?

No, they are clearly demarcated as game tokens.

What U.S. coin had a rat on them? Oh, wait, that's the current dime!

If you told someone that it was U.S. Currency (the blind, a fresh immigrant, etc.) then it would be Fraud under §486.

 

[steveh_131]

No, read the statute again. It does not have to be indistinguishable.

Is this the portion you're talking about?

Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or

 

[rambone]

Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or

Which U.S. coin has LIBERTYDOLLAR.ORG stamped on it along with a 1-800 number?

 

[snowrs]

If they were being used in commerce in violation of the Constitution, then yes they would be illegal. But they are not. They are game tokens with no intrinsic or redeemable value that can only be used on the Chuck E Cheese premises. You can't trade them for milk at the Handy Dandy.

If I took these to Handy Dandy and convinced the woman behind the counter to give me a Twinkie for 8 of those coins. Then she took her kids to Chuck E Cheese and spent said coins instead of buying her own would that be illegal? That is exactly what Liberty Dollars were doing.

 

[Stschil]

If I took these to Handy Dandy and convinced the woman behind the counter to give me a Twinkie for 8 of those coins. Then she took her kids to Chuck E Cheese and spent said coins instead of buying her own would that be illegal? That is exactly what Liberty Dollars were doing.

People were spending them a Chuck E Cheese? I knew those games were rigged!

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

If I took these to Handy Dandy and convinced the woman behind the counter to give me a Twinkie for 8 of those coins. Then she took her kids to Chuck E Cheese and spent said coins instead of buying her own would that be illegal? That is exactly what Liberty Dollars were doing.

If you took them to Handy Dandy and bartered them, you'd be OK. If you tried to convince someone they were money, or you used them amongst a group of people as currency, you wouldn't be OK.

 

[hooky]

So when I trade a dozen or so .22LR for 2 loaves of bread, will I be a felon or will I be OK?

 

[steveh_131]

If you took them to Handy Dandy and bartered them, you'd be OK. If you tried to convince someone they were money, or you used them amongst a group of people as currency, you wouldn't be OK.

So the issue isn't that the coins resembled U.S. currency at all, the issue is that they tried to form their own currency independent of the official U.S. currency? That's where he actually broke the law?

 

[Cemetery-man]

From what I remember, it seemed the Govt., even though they didn't like the guy and his "dollars", didn't act until he started stating the Liberty coins were "legal tender" money in advertisements for his coins. I seem to recall CoinWorld bringing that up repeatedly in articles at the time.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

So the issue isn't that the coins resembled U.S. currency at all, the issue is that they tried to form their own currency independent of the official U.S. currency? That's where he actually broke the law?

Exactly. The Constitution makes coining money the exclusive purview of the federal government. If you create your own money you are in violation of the Constitution and federal law. While I haven't gone through the record I believe that they marketed liberty dollars as a currency replacement.

 

[steveh_131]

Exactly. The Constitution makes coining money the exclusive purview of the federal government. If you create your own money you are in violation of the Constitution and federal law. While I haven't gone through the record I believe that they marketed liberty dollars as a currency replacement.

Would you please cite the specific federal laws and the verbiage in the constitution that prohibits individuals from bartering with their own currency?

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Would you please cite the specific federal laws and the verbiage in the constitution that prohibits individuals from bartering with their own currency?

How many times do I have to do that in this thread?

Section 8 of the Constitution establishes the Congress shall have to power to coin and regulate the value of money.

Section 10 of the Constitution establishes the States (and therefore the people) may not coin money.

18 USC §486
18 USC §489

Check out the search warrant affidavit for some additional information.

http://www.johnlocke.org/site-docs/meckdeck/pdfs/USAVLibdoll.pdf

 

[steveh_131]

How many times do I have to do that in this thread?

Section 8 of the Constitution establishes the Congress shall have to power to coin and regulate the value of money.

Section 10 of the Constitution establishes the States (and therefore the people) may not coin money.

18 USC §486
18 USC §489

Check out the search warrant affidavit for some additional information.

http://www.johnlocke.org/site-docs/meckdeck/pdfs/USAVLibdoll.pdf

Section 8 says nothing that prohibits individuals from making coins.

Section 10 is talking about states...how do you make the jump to assume that anything in the constitution restricting a state also restricts individuals?

18 USC §489 only talks about making currency that resembles official currencies.

18 USC §486 seems to be the only one of these that actually applies. However, according to webster, the definition of "Current Money" is

lawful or universally acceptable money

His currency was neither lawful nor universally acceptable, was it?

 

[snowrs]

He was convicted of Fraud, He never claimed it was legal tender, the prosecution presented that he made it look enough like real money and the fact he asked vendors who accepted them to try and give them as change constituted fraud. To a jury of his " peers" this felt like fraud

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Section 8 says nothing that prohibits individuals from making coins.

Section 10 is talking about states...how do you make the jump to assume that anything in the constitution restricting a state also restricts individuals?

18 USC §489 only talks about making currency that resembles official currencies.

18 USC §486 seems to be the only one of these that actually applies. However, according to webster, the definition of "Current Money" is



His currency was neither lawful nor universally acceptable, was it?

I keep forgetting you went to law school. What school was it and when did you graduate again?