FBI/DHS Raiding Militias...

[WWIIIDefender]

Ok so if this militia was so smart to have such and ellaborite plan to lure out police officers to thier deaths and then plan on bombing the funeral, then why in heck didn't they have a contingency plan on being raided by the feds. I mean if they wanted to lure the police to them to attack what better way to bring them to you than to get raided. All these raids and not on single shot. Come on I don't believe they were planning this at all if they were the raids would have went down as a blood bath.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Fargo, you have no clue. that was a totaly different set of circumstances. thanks for trying to be my concience, but i think ill stick with the one ive got. its got me pretty far already.

 

[darinb]

It is a shame how the news seems to demonize both firearms and Christianity. All that is mentioned is they were (supposedly) Christian and they had firearms. I am a Christian and I own guns but I am not at all like those people. It is sad that ignorant people who get this info from the media will pull in law abiding God fearing gun owners in the same group as those people.

 

[Denny347]

There, I fixed it for you. Keep these points in mind. Some of the things that the feds are saying about this are the very same things that they said about other groups, which proved later to be either gross exaggerations, or outright lies.

Sadly, few make those distinctions when there is a LEO accused of a crime/wrongdoing. For that matter, any person we do not like, it is easy to forget the "guilty until proven innocent". I make no claims of guilt on this topic, none of us have enough information to make an informed decision based on the information released. However, it seems that most here believe these guys are innocent. They would rather believe the militia is innocent than the Fed LEO's are correct in this instance. Belief of guilt/innocence is based on popularity. But based on the alligations, I reserve my sympathy for when it is shown that it is deserved.

 

[Joe Williams]

snip
However, it seems that most here believe these guys are innocent. They would rather believe the militia is innocent than the Fed LEO's are correct in this instance. Belief of guilt/innocence is based on popularity. But based on the alligations, I reserve my sympathy for when it is shown that it is deserved.

Well, now, the Feds kind of brought that on themselves, didn't they? So far as we know, the militia group hasn't murdered any American citizens simply for having unpopular beliefs. They haven't made a deliberate decision to gun down a mother, an American citizen charged with no crime, simply because she was inconvenient. They haven't celebrated the action by promoting and honoring the murderous slug who carried it out. They haven't committed perjury to cover their actions. They haven't burned more than 80 men, women, and children at the stake, then lied about why and how they did it.

Yeah, for the time being I'll believe the militia group is innocent, since all we have saying otherwise is the word of a group of known liars and murderers. And the feds did that all by, and to, themselves.

 

[tradertator]

I sure hope they are innocent, because those are some REALLY ugly allegations, against a group pretty close to home, and you guys are absolutely right about being innocent until proven guilty. Trust me, I would like nothing more than to find out these were some gun loving, good ol' boys who are being falsely accused and wrongfully persecuted. However, as this story is unfolding, my gut tells me these guys were up to no good.

 

[Eddie]

Keep in mind that even if you read the indictment that the indictment is a document crafted by the federal government's attorney assigned to prosecute the case. It is a depiction of the best case that the feds can make, assuming all of their evidence is admissable and taken to be credible. In other words, just because one lawyer writes the word indictment on the top of a piece of paper it does not mean that everything written on that paper is true.

Yes, they were indicted by a grand jury, but as the saying goes "Any competent attorney can indict a ham sandwich with a grand jury." During grand jury proceedings, only the state is allowed to present evidence. It is likely that these defendants were not even aware of the proceedings against them until they were arrested.

As far as the media reports, the media want to sell newspapers and boost television ratings, not report the truth. That is why several of the articles use the ex-wife of one of the arrestees in their interview. We all know that ex-wives always act in their ex-husband's best interests. News about guns and bombs and killing cops sells.

We will likely never know the truth about what happened. The arrestees are getting public defenders which probably means they will be advised to accept guilty pleas so the case won't go to trial.

 

[Hemingway]

Keep in mind that even if you read the indictment that the indictment is a document crafted by the federal government's attorney assigned to prosecute the case. It is a depiction of the best case that the feds can make, assuming all of their evidence is admissable and taken to be credible. In other words, just because one lawyer writes the word indictment on the top of a piece of paper it does not mean that everything written on that paper is true.

Yes, they were indicted by a grand jury, but as the saying goes "Any competent attorney can indict a ham sandwich with a grand jury." During grand jury proceedings, only the state is allowed to present evidence. It is likely that these defendants were not even aware of the proceedings against them until they were arrested.

As far as the media reports, the media want to sell newspapers and boost television ratings, not report the truth. That is why several of the articles use the ex-wife of one of the arrestees in their interview. We all know that ex-wives always act in their ex-husband's best interests. News about guns and bombs and killing cops sells.

We will likely never know the truth about what happened. The arrestees are getting public defenders which probably means they will be advised to accept guilty pleas so the case won't go to trial.

I agree, except I would add that I think we'll eventually learn a lot about it. One or two will flip to rat out the others. Happens every time.

Of course, then the conspiracies will start, "Well, the government just PAID them to say that...."

 

[XMil]

Sadly, few make those distinctions when there is a LEO accused of a crime/wrongdoing. For that matter, any person we do not like, it is easy to forget the "guilty until proven innocent". I make no claims of guilt on this topic, none of us have enough information to make an informed decision based on the information released. However, it seems that most here believe these guys are innocent. They would rather believe the militia is innocent than the Fed LEO's are correct in this instance. Belief of guilt/innocence is based on popularity. But based on the alligations, I reserve my sympathy for when it is shown that it is deserved.

These goofs were planning to kill as many LEO's as possible while they were attending a fellow LEO's funeral. They get no sympathy from me.
Feds say militia members wanted to attack cops - Security- msnbc.com

 

[k12lts]

I sure hope they are innocent, because those are some REALLY ugly allegations, against a group pretty close to home, and you guys are absolutely right about being innocent until proven guilty. Trust me, I would like nothing more than to find out these were some gun loving, good ol' boys who are being falsely accused and wrongfully persecuted. However, as this story is unfolding, my gut tells me these guys were up to no good.

This.

 

[Fargo]

Exactly. In the beginning the local LE used it during Terry stops and searched vehicles without cause.

Can I get a citation on that please? And pretty please can it not be a quote from the fountain of disinformation known as Russ Feingold?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Denny347]

Uh, that is the alligations. They still don't get any sympathy from me.

 

[Eddie]

Uh, that is the alligations. They still don't get any sympathy from me.

They did seem to fall out of the d**b a** tree as far as what can be gleaned from the news reports. Their website would be almost sure to draw attention from LEOs, opening their group up to surveilance and probably infiltration. As far as selling pipe bombs, why? Its not like pipe bombs require some sort of high tech gear or special skills. Building and selling junk like that is just another way to draw unwanted attention. The plot to kill local law enforcement in order to somehow punish federal law enforcement is also a piece of disjointed thinking.

 

[SavageEagle]

Ok so if this militia was so smart to have such and ellaborite plan to lure out police officers to thier deaths and then plan on bombing the funeral, then why in heck didn't they have a contingency plan on being raided by the feds. I mean if they wanted to lure the police to them to attack what better way to bring them to you than to get raided. All these raids and not on single shot. Come on I don't believe they were planning this at all if they were the raids would have went down as a blood bath.

EXACTLY!

Can I get a citation on that please? And pretty please can it not be a quote from the fountain of disinformation known as Russ Feingold?

Thanks,

Joe

And who the hell is Russ Feingold? No, I watched a few friends get arrested one night because the police quoted the Patriot Act and searched their car. I got searched here in Plainfield one night cause the officer said the Patriot Act stated I didn't have to give permission anymore. He didn't find anything and instead gave me a bogus ticket cause he was pissed he couldn't find anything. And I heard many stories about it happening to others all across the Country. First hand experience is my citation.

 

[jeremy]

Fargo, you have no clue. that was a totaly different set of circumstances. thanks for trying to be my concience, but i think ill stick with the one ive got. its got me pretty far already.

You have a conscience...

I thought those got removed at Camp MacKall...

 

[dburkhead]

And who the hell is Russ Feingold? No, I watched a few friends get arrested one night because the police quoted the Patriot Act and searched their car. I got searched here in Plainfield one night cause the officer said the Patriot Act stated I didn't have to give permission anymore. He didn't find anything and instead gave me a bogus ticket cause he was pissed he couldn't find anything. And I heard many stories about it happening to others all across the Country. First hand experience is my citation.

First let me say that a lot of the "Patriot Act" is bad and do not take any of the following as support for it.

A lot of people, including those in power, say a lot of things about the Patriot Act that are just flat out wrong. No, it does not provide blanket authority to search. It does not provide blanket authority for wiretaps. It doesn't do a lot of things that the Left and the Media claim for it.

It got to the point where my biggest concern wasn't what it actually said--bad as it was IMO--but that should the left ever gain power (as they have) they would act as if it did grant them all the power they claimed in their anti-Bush lies.

And they seem right on track for doing so.

 

[thompal]

It is a shame how the news seems to demonize both firearms and Christianity. All that is mentioned is they were (supposedly) Christian and they had firearms. I am a Christian and I own guns but I am not at all like those people. It is sad that ignorant people who get this info from the media will pull in law abiding God fearing gun owners in the same group as those people.

You see, that's the thing: You might be EXACTLY like the people in that group. I don't know anyone in that group, and if you don't either, then we really have NO IDEA what they really believe, or know what they really wanted.

All we know is what the feds and the SPLC whose "facts" are usually 99% BS, fabrication, invention, or delusion, tell the media, who, either through near total incompetence or because of a political agenda, always get it either totally wrong, leave out vital items of interest, or misinterpret it all.

If you had believed the feds and the media during Waco, you would have "known" that the Davidians were laying in wait for LE to attack, so they could be ambushed, owned full-auto M2s, molested children, attacked neighbors, and made explosives.

 

[Expat]

That's the problem. Once you know someone is a liar, you have a hard time believing them after that. A court will even instruct a jury to consider a witnesses truthfulness and perhaps ignore their entire testimony if anything they said was a lie. We don't "know" anything here. The only side we hear is from the Feds. The Feds have shown a proclivity in the past of "stretching the truth" (being polite) about such groups.

 

[SavageEagle]

That's the problem. Once you know someone is a liar, you have a hard time believing them after that. A court will even instruct a jury to consider a witnesses truthfulness and perhaps ignore their entire testimony if anything they said was a lie. We don't "know" anything here. The only side we hear is from the Feds. The Feds have shown a proclivity in the past of "stretching the truth" (being polite) about such groups.

No, we've heard plenty from regular people who knew the accused and people involved with them. They all paint a pretty different story to me.

 

[CouncilOfDave]

I'm betting the only person actually talking about killing cops turns out to be the fed informant. Holder DOJ has a habit of such raids, based up on such "evidence," at convenient times.

http://69.65.114.219/liberty/mark-2008-11-19-2000-hutaree.mp3

Skip forward to about 34 minutes in, and you'll hear what "Capt. Hutaree" has to say....