FBI/DHS Raiding Militias...

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  • Hemingway

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    Sep 30, 2009
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    Yeah that forum is pretty bad, but you can tell from some of the older threads that while they might have been somewhat extreme, I really don't see them going all out fed killing. And now it's not about them wanting to kill feds. It's NOW supposedly about making threats against an Islamic group? Really. WOW.




    Yeah, it always seemed a little strange to me that people who would think enough to study/develop tactics, come up with their doctrine, plan and organize events, website, forums, etc would have such a nutty plan as killing some cops so other cops show up the funeral and they can kill more?! Just doesn't make sense. Even the dumbest of the dumb, even Bill Maher fans, would know that the security at murdered cops' funerals would outnumber the militia members 1000 to 1.

    Murdered cop funerals are a huge deal--cops, agents, etc, come from every state in the country, from foreign countries, etc. The motorcade procession alone would be hundreds of cars. Only the most dillusional psychotic would intentionally plan on attacking LEO's when their security would be at the absolute highest possible. Not saying it's completely out of the realm of possibility but it just doesn't make sense. But, if that's truly what they really were doing, then the hell with them, in my opinion.

    But, the bottom line is it doesn't seem like any of us have any firsthand knowledge of what they were doing so we're all just speculating. One or two of them will undoubtedly rat the rest of them out and we'll know more eventually.

    I'm speculating that right about now, maybe a few of them are rethinking all that money spent on PALS gear and face paint, though.:D
     

    Fargo

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    In a state of acute Pork-i-docis
    Arguably?

    Well, I really don't see how me buying a gun in the state I live in is INTERSTATE commerce, but then again the SCOTUS disagrees. I personally don't think it is arguable at all the the NICS requirement is unconstitutional; it doesn't fall within any enumerated power.

    Ranger apparently thinks it does for reasons not clear to me.

    Thank FDR for the fact that the doctrine of enumerated powers is now functionally meaningless...


    Best,

    Joe
     

    edsinger

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    Apr 14, 2009
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    "We can't handle the Truth!"

    I want to see the whole story, not mainstream media either........

    Pipebombs? Idiots if trying to sell them.

    We do not have the whole story....Mark it.
     

    smokingman

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    I was listening to a radio program and have confirmed the wording.None of the militia members where actually arrested.They are being "detained" by the department of homeland security.The wording used at there hearing today makes this clear as well,it was a DETAINMENT hearing.IE right,wrong,dumb,setup it does not matter as they have 0 legal rights currently.They have not been arrested,but detained.
    A detention hearing and arraignment was set for Wednesday.

    Nine charged in radical US Christian militia plot - Yahoo! Canada News
     

    Fargo

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    I was listening to a radio program and have confirmed the wording.None of the militia members where actually arrested.They are being "detained" by the department of homeland security.The wording used at there hearing today makes this clear as well,it was a DETAINMENT hearing.IE right,wrong,dumb,setup it does not matter as they have 0 legal rights currently.They have not been arrested,but detained.
    A detention hearing and arraignment was set for Wednesday.

    Nine charged in radical US Christian militia plot - Yahoo! Canada News

    They were indicted by a grand jury and arrested. The hearings set are to advise them of their rights and to set bond.

    Where are you getting this legal definition of "detained". This is a federal criminal prosecution, not detention of illegal combatants. "Detained" merely means held in custody, ie; under arrest and held for charges.

    Joe
     

    phil

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    Apr 2, 2009
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    They just can't seem to get the story straight can they? :n00b:


    This is what I've been wondering throughout this whole thread.

    Are people "detained" for selling pipe bombs or for planing on using them????

    Disclaimer: I have not read/watched all of the links in this thread. Sorry if this is covered somewhere within.
     

    smokingman

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    They were indicted by a grand jury and arrested. The hearings set are to advise them of their rights and to set bond.

    Where are you getting this legal definition of "detained". This is a federal criminal prosecution, not detention of illegal combatants. "Detained" merely means held in custody, ie; under arrest and held for charges.

    Joe
    Detained vs Arrested

    A detainment hearing is set to give time to gather evidence.I see the charges being filed against them,but would that involve a pre-trial hearing(and lawyers?).They have not been given a chance to talk to legal council.If they where actually arrested they would have to be given the right to counsel,that is the reason for detainment vs arrest.I can see the government keeping them in detainment status,and there fore with out the legal right to counsel.The radio program I was listening to had the wife of one of the detained on it,and there attorney has not been allowed to contact her husband even though he filed to represent them.
     

    Fargo

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    Detained vs Arrested

    A detainment hearing is set to give time to gather evidence.I see the charges being filed against them,but would that involve a pre-trial hearing(and lawyers?).They have not been given a chance to talk to legal council.If they where actually arrested they would have to be given the right to counsel,that is the reason for detainment vs arrest.I can see the government keeping them in detainment status,and there fore with out the legal right to counsel.The radio program I was listening to had the wife of one of the detained on it,and there attorney has not been allowed to contact her husband even though he filed to represent them.

    Your link refers to Terry-type reasonable suspicion detentions, not people being taken into custody. A Terry stop by definition does not involve a custodial arrest and are based upon reasonable suspicion. They DO NOT involve being locked up. What is happening to these militia guys and a Terry-stop are very different things.

    Federal charges, by constitutional mandate, can only be brought by indictment. Upon being being taken into custody, you immediately have the right to counsel as long as you assert it. As soon as you assert it, any questioning must be stopped until you are provided with counsel.

    There is no such thing as "right-free detention" as you are using the word in the federal criminal prosecution context. You always have the right to counsel once you are in custody, you just have to assert your right. Until counsel is provided, you can't be questioned.

    Just because an attorney files an appearance on your behalf does not mean you have asserted your right. It is up to the accused whether he wants counsel, not his wife or any attorney.

    Charges appear to have already been brought via indictment in this case. As such, there is no need for pre-charge detention since the indictments have already happened.

    I'm not certain of federal pre-charge detention custody limitations, but in Indiana the state normally has 72 hours from a judges initial finding of probable cause to file charges. I assume there is an analogous federal process to give the Gov't time to present it to a grand jury. Once again, it doesn't look like that is necessary in this case as indictments have already come down.

    Joe
     

    smokingman

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    Not if they are terrorist under the patriot act.
    Anita Ramasastry, an associate professor of law and a director of the Shidler Center for Law, Commerce, & Technology at the University of Washington School of Law in Seattle, Washington, accused the Act of depriving basic rights for immigrants to America, including legal permanent residents. She warned that "Indefinite detention upon secret evidence — which the USA PATRIOT Act allows — sounds more like Taliban justice than ours. Our claim that we are attempting to build an international coalition against terrorism will be severely undermined if we pass legislation allowing even citizens of our allies to be incarcerated without basic U.S. guarantees of fairness and justice."[227] Many other parties have also been strongly critical of the provision. Russell Feingold, in a Senate floor statement, claimed that the provision "falls short of meeting even basic constitutional standards of due process and fairness [as it] continues to allow the Attorney General to detain persons based on mere suspicion"

    "Indefinite detention upon secret evidence — which the USA PATRIOT Act allows.

    But I was also wrong.I found an article that showed they had been appointed public defenders in court today,there fore arrested.
     

    Fargo

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    No problem, thanks for the rep. The PATRIOT ACT provisions your reference appear to refer to detention of an illegal enemy combatant, such as those held at GITMO. Those are not federal criminal prosecutions like this militia scenario but something else altogether.

    Best,

    Joe
     

    smokingman

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    No problem, thanks for the rep. The PATRIOT ACT provisions your reference appear to refer to detention of an illegal enemy combatant, such as those held at GITMO. Those are not federal criminal prosecutions like this militia scenario but something else altogether.

    Best,

    Joe
    But do not think for a second the Patriot act is only used against enemy combatants.

     

    SSGSAD

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    Dec 22, 2009
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    Well, I just got home, and I read 28 pgs of this, and all I can say is WOW ! When I was training, at Grayling, back in 1998, or 99, the word was passed, watch out and be careful, the Mich. Militia, are doing movements in the woods, and I thought why, all I have is a FA M-16, and a mag., of blanks !!!!! Then one other time, we heard about a "riot", down here in Indy, and when we came back, never heard another thing about it ... If they are comming, when they knock, on the door, I guess we will have to make up our mind, WHAT are WE going to DO ?????
     

    tradertator

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    thank god the feds came down on the whack jobs before someone got killed. idiots like these get lumped in with law abiding, responsible gun owners, and that is very unfortunate.
     

    j706

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    Dec 4, 2008
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    thank god the feds came down on the whack jobs before someone got killed. idiots like these get lumped in with law abiding, responsible gun owners, and that is very unfortunate.

    Agreed. I hope they get very long prison terms. Idiots like those people cause stupid laws to be passed. No sympathy here for the nut jobs like that.
     

    tradertator

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    What logical person would think killing a police officer, and then bombing the funeral would help fuel an uprising against the government? For the first time in my lifetime, I felt like America was truly "united" after the terrorist attacks of September 11th. An attack like this would bring the opposite of what this group intended. Stuff like this blows my mind, and is incredibly scary being this close to home.
     

    thompal

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    Agreed. I hope they get very long prison terms. Idiots like those people cause stupid laws to be passed. No sympathy here for the nut jobs like that.

    We might want to keep in mind the fact that they are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

    Also, this sounds more like a smear campaign by the feds than anything. I don't really think the feds can be believed about anything on this case. Besides, since when has congress needed an excuse to pass stupid and/or unconstitutional laws?
     

    BloodEclipse

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    Apr 3, 2008
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    What logical person would think killing a police officer, and then bombing the funeral would help fuel an uprising against the government? For the first time in my lifetime, I felt like America was truly "united" after the terrorist attacks of September 11th. An attack like this would bring the opposite of what this group intended. Stuff like this blows my mind, and is incredibly scary being this close to home.

    We know none of this to be FACT yet.
    My past dealings with the media make me very skeptical of what is being reported.
     
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