Donald J. Trump. Messiah? Poopiehead? Discuss...

[actaeon277]

They may very well be. But as far as who Trump needed to name or not in this case we disagree. Like I said that happens sometimes. I made the best case I had at the time and so did you but we just weren't able to convince each other to change our mind on this one.

If you use violence and suppress other's speech, why is one "worse" than the other?
They are both using the same, let me repeat "SAME" tactics.

Look up how the Nazis came to power.
IT'S THE SAME.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Most came to this thread to engage in the interesting and stimulating debate on demagoguery, political extremism, and the intricacies of human nature.

Some came to say that Trump is a Poopiehead.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Nah, I wasn't speaking of all his supporters, just the one's in Charlottesville who were at the Rally. Now those same people are probably mad. His original message was really weak. The one he gave today was much better. I applaud him for it. He sounded presidential, and the talking heads on the news channels that are giving him grief, I disagree with.

After hearing Trump's statement today, at Trump Tower, I am retracting the bolded portion. It was simply a ruse. In that regard, the media had it right.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I'll give.it another go.

Blacks

For one thing it helps to understand the entire history of slavery and the entire struggle from there to here. I think your well aware that the Emancipation Proclimation and the end of the Civil War did not resolve the issue. Blacks were still not free because blacks were still not equal. if I remember correctly although they got the right to vote shortly afterwards they faced numerous years if not almost a century of hangings, discrimination, Jim Crow laws and segregation. In fact shortly after the Civil War the faced years of retaliation and hangings. The KKK was born shortly after the Civil War and General Nathan Bedford Forest may have actually have been the first Imperial Wizard of the KKK. Discrimination in the a south may have been bad but they also faced discremination in the north as well with inequality of pay. Anyway they faced years of inequality and it wasn't until the Civil Rights Act in the early 60's that discrimination was outlawed. But the 60's were hardly the best of times and even after the Civil Rights Act was signed the faced many more years of discrimination. Heck not until recently you still had racial profiling and stop and frisk. Many of which statistically have proven to yield nothing more than more racial divide, inequality and yet they don't prevent crime.

NEO Nazis

One of the most despicable racisist organizations that I and most people who remember WWII can think of. Responsible for the death of over 6 millions of Jews. There are a vast number of people who have relatives who were killed by this group of low life's.

WS

Responsible for numerous hangings or linchings, bombings, and terrorizing of blacks.


Anti Protesters

Responsible for protesting the beliefs and acts of Neo Nazis and WS.



Now forget or don't forget the violent activity of the Anti Protestors of which some actually did not show up for or did not conduct any violence.


Now which group or groups do you think the President should condemn? Those that have the longest history of nothing but repugnant and deadly violence, mass gassing, torture, linching, hangings, murder, and bombings or a group of Anti Protestors of which a few may have punched or kicked someone? Oh, did I forget to mention the Neo Nazi and the car?

OK, first, lets confine how we react in the present to people who are actually alive and keep the reaction based on their actual behavior. Embracing a murderous regime and having a good enough tailor to look like such people says a lot about what these people think. On the other side, you have people who, confined to those living and their actions in the present, are every bit as violent and harbor an ideology that is every bit as hate-filled as the pseudo-Nazis. Just because someone on Team Nazi got in the spectacular blow in this battle that doesn't make Antifa any better.

Ok, now I'm getting an explanation. If you did this before I'm sorry I missed it in the heat of the discussion. We've been argueing for days and either I unfortunately missed this point or failed to give it much credit.

Unfortunately we may still have reached a point where we will fail to agree. It seems there's just very little room for give on this from either side of this coin.

Yes I'm certain that ANTIFA was present. In fact I'm certain they will be present at any of these NEO Nazi and White supremacist rallies. But the fact that WS and NEO Nazis exist is repugnant. Sorry they just win the dispecable of dispecable contest. Now when ANTIFA exist long enough to mass murder, linch, torture, and be responsible for all the heinous crimes these groups have committed then and only then might we begin to focus on them when all three groups are put side by side. Besides when you talk WS and NEO Nazis protesting and compare that to those who are there to protest the protest then ANTIFA tends to get a bit of cover.

Keep in mind I'm not saying ANTIFAs actions are acceptable,

Again, for reality's sake, let's stick with deeds being done by people who are still alive and doing.

But I did and that maybe my fault. But that's why I said it because I hardly ever just walk away. Generally I demand clarification especially if I believe it too be. Thanks for the clarification.

Frankly and honestly I don't have any idea really who ANTIFA is so I have no idea what they represent, They well might be repugnant and in fact because you used that terminology at this point conversing with you as I have I'll take your word until proven differently. Repugnant is rarely used in conjunction with a group of people by reasonable people when it is not justified.

So although they are repugnant and their actions should be vilified Trump screwed up. His both sides statement was milk toast. there is a specific place in many people mind and not their heart for WS and Neo Nazis. I for one am ignorant to who ANTIFA is. But I'm not ignorant to who WS and Neo Nazis are, So he GOOFED, he miss stepped, he missed the boat, he messed up, Naming names was very important here. The backlash he faced was not just from MSM if you think that I think your failing to see something here.

So, you are admitting that perception and making left of center tummies feel good is more important than truth? Trump should condemn the WS/Nazis and give the others a free pass because they are not household names? You still believe that one hate-filled violent mob which seeks to suppress opposition through intimidation and violence is superior to the other hate-filled mob which seeks to suppress opposition through intimidation and violence?

 

[actaeon277]

Yes
Trump is a "poopiehead"
So we're they all, or at least the ones I've been an adult for.

Both sides seem to be okay with ignoring the Constitution, for their own purpose.

One's pulling money out of my right pocket, while telling me they "understand me".
The other's pulling money out of my left pocket, while telling me they "understand me".

 

[HoughMade]

Yes
Trump is a "poopiehead"
So we're they all, or at least the ones I've been an adult for.

Both sides seem to be okay with ignoring the Constitution, for their own purpose.

One's pulling money out of my right pocket, while telling me they "understand me".
The other's pulling money out of my left pocket, while telling me they "understand me".

To quote (kinda) Gunny Hartman: They "didn't have the ___ ____ common courtesy to give you a _____ around".

 

[IndyDave1776]

Yes
Trump is a "poopiehead"
So we're they all, or at least the ones I've been an adult for.

Both sides seem to be okay with ignoring the Constitution, for their own purpose.

One's pulling money out of my right pocket, while telling me they "understand me".
The other's pulling money out of my left pocket, while telling me they "understand me".

I don't know about anyone else, but while I do not condone ignoring the Constitution, I would much rather have it ignored by someone who has not declared me an enemy who needs punished and/or eradicated.

 

[Dddrees]

After hearing Trump's statement today, at Trump Tower, I am retracting the bolded portion. It was simply a ruse. In that regard, the media had it right.

Supposedly this whole thing was supposed to be about infastructure and instead Trump went off script.

Every time he speaks I feel like he sets a another match on fire. Today he set the bonfire ablaze. Problem is this bonfire is hardly under control anymore.

 

[Kutnupe14]

If you use violence and suppress other's speech, why is one "worse" than the other?
They are both using the same, let me repeat "SAME" tactics.

Look up how the Nazis came to power.
IT'S THE SAME.

DDdress, may need to, but I don't. The Nazi's did not come to power through the suppression of speech. They came to power on the backs of desperate Germans suffering from the depression, scapegoating minority groups, promising to re-install German cutlas values, and with the promise of returning Germany to a world power. This isn't say that the Nazis didn't try to suppress speech, but in that regard, the effects weren't all that great. The German people bought in to Nazi rhetoric. They didn't settle for the Nazis because there were no better choices.

 

[Dddrees]

DDdress, may need to, but I don't. The Nazi's did not come to power through the suppression of speech. They came to power on the backs of desperate Germans suffering from the depression, scapegoating minority groups, promising to re-install German cutlas values, and with the promise of returning Germany to a world power. This isn't say that the Nazis didn't try to suppress speech, but in that regard, the effects weren't all that great. The German people bought in to Nazi rhetoric. They didn't settle for the Nazis because there were no better choices.

The fact that the World wanted so badly to teach Germany and make them pay such a high price for WWI brought the Nazis to power. Thank god we learned our lesson and handled the situation with the losers so much better after WWII.

 

[actaeon277]

DDdress, may need to, but I don't. The Nazi's did not come to power through the suppression of speech. They came to power on the backs of desperate Germans suffering from the depression, scapegoating minority groups, promising to re-install German cutlas values, and with the promise of returning Germany to a world power. This isn't say that the Nazis didn't try to suppress speech, but in that regard, the effects weren't all that great. The German people bought in to Nazi rhetoric. They didn't settle for the Nazis because there were no better choices.

They also did that.
But they also suppressed people that were a threat to them.

 

[ATM]

...Problem is this bonfire is hardly under control anymore.

Control is an illusion.

 

[Dddrees]

Control is an illusion.

Yep, stupidity be D*****!!

 

[jamil]

DDdress, may need to, but I don't. The Nazi's did not come to power through the suppression of speech. They came to power on the backs of desperate Germans suffering from the depression, scapegoating minority groups, promising to re-install German cutlas values, and with the promise of returning Germany to a world power. This isn't say that the Nazis didn't try to suppress speech, but in that regard, the effects weren't all that great. The German people bought in to Nazi rhetoric. They didn't settle for the Nazis because there were no better choices.

This is mostly true. Subversive tactics were a big part of Hitler's rise, too.

But we kinda get off track with things here. Trump isn't actually, literally Hitler. Most of Trump's opposition is fighting straw monsters rather than the precise monster. The true monster isn't nearly as scary as the one people are fighting. And the true monster isn't all bad. We should look at all of Trump's ideas for what they are. We shouldn't reject them all just because they're his. Support the good ones and reject the bad ones. The ones which are pro-liberty I'll support. The ones which are anti-liberty I'll reject. The personality is less relevant. The ideas are what's important.

 

[jamil]

Supposedly this whole thing was supposed to be about infastructure and instead Trump went off script.

Every time he speaks I feel like he sets a another match on fire. Today he set the bonfire ablaze. Problem is this bonfire is hardly under control anymore.

The more you make relevant, the more you perceive chaos. Some things are chaotic. Most things aren't.

 

[churchmouse]

This is mostly true. Subversive tactics were a big part of Hitler's rise, too.

But we kinda get off track with things here. Trump isn't actually, literally Hitler. Most of Trump's opposition is fighting straw monsters rather than the precise monster. The true monster isn't nearly as scary as the one people are fighting. And the true monster isn't all bad. We should look at all of Trump's ideas for what they are. We shouldn't reject them all just because they're his. Support the good ones and reject the bad ones. The ones which are pro-liberty I'll support. The ones which are anti-liberty I'll reject. The personality is less relevant. The ideas are what's important.

​"WINNER"

 

[Spear Dane]

Problem is this bonfire is hardly under control anymore.

 

[Birds Away]

This is mostly true. Subversive tactics were a big part of Hitler's rise, too.

But we kinda get off track with things here. Trump isn't actually, literally Hitler. Most of Trump's opposition is fighting straw monsters rather than the precise monster. The true monster isn't nearly as scary as the one people are fighting. And the true monster isn't all bad. We should look at all of Trump's ideas for what they are. We shouldn't reject them all just because they're his. Support the good ones and reject the bad ones. The ones which are pro-liberty I'll support. The ones which are anti-liberty I'll reject. The personality is less relevant. The ideas are what's important.

You certainly aren't going to sell that anywhere, including here.

 

[Spear Dane]

TBH I'm ready for Mr. T to be gone and let Pence in. There's no way that man is going to see 4 years in office. He's the very definition of a political lightning rod and nothing is getting done legislatively.

 

[Dddrees]

TBH I'm ready for Mr. T to be gone and let Pence in. There's no way that man is going to see 4 years in office. He's the very definition of a political lightning rod and nothing is getting done legislatively.

BINGO

We Got A Winner!!