-
Be sure to read this post! Beware of scammers. https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/classifieds-new-online-payment-guidelines-rules-paypal-venmo-zelle-etc.511734/
Do you TRULY want a good AR-15 or do you want crap?
- Thread starter Trigger Time
- Start date
The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana
Member Benefits:
Fewer Ads! Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership Discuss anti-gun legislation Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses Discover free outdoor shooting areas View up to date on firearm-related events Share photos & video with other members ...and so much more!
Member Benefits:
Well, after six months of thinking about it, do you truly want a good AR or do you want
? 
CampingJosh
Master
- Dec 16, 2010
- 3,298
- 99
Well, after six months of thinking about it, do you truly want a good AR or do you want
Is it OK to have both? I have a very nice BCM and also one that I put together myself from inexpensive parts (Rock River, Del-ton, etc.). They both work as I need them to.
Blasphemer!
Kirk Freeman
Grandmaster
It does not matter. He cries about everything.
Probably due to the blood loss.
JeepHammer
SHOOTER
Take this for what it's costing you,
I was in the Marine Corps for 16 years, when I wasn't deployed I built rifles for 14 of those years (Special Weapons).
The BCM rifles are closest to what we built for Designated Marksmen, Sniper Spotters & Special Operations.
Keep in mind my active duty days were before the current crop of AR clones, like Knight M110, etc.
It costs me about $1,000 to produce an actual military grade AR clone from parts. That's parts cost alone, no fitting, no tuning, no markup.
I'm VERY picky about my personal rifles, and I'll shoot a BCM right out of the box.
It's a solid, no BS, nearly all milspec or better parts rifle that's properly fitted & assembled.
They are as tough & reliable as any AR clone you can buy over the counter for any price.
Keep in mind, I reject about 25% of the milspec parts that come in my door, I'm NOT easy on manufactures.
If it wouldn't pass in the Corps, it won't pass here, and it appears BCM does the same thing, but sells the finished product cheaper than I can often get the CORRECT parts for.
That doesn't include fitting, assembly or tuning...
I was in the Marine Corps for 16 years, when I wasn't deployed I built rifles for 14 of those years (Special Weapons).
The BCM rifles are closest to what we built for Designated Marksmen, Sniper Spotters & Special Operations.
Keep in mind my active duty days were before the current crop of AR clones, like Knight M110, etc.
It costs me about $1,000 to produce an actual military grade AR clone from parts. That's parts cost alone, no fitting, no tuning, no markup.
I'm VERY picky about my personal rifles, and I'll shoot a BCM right out of the box.
It's a solid, no BS, nearly all milspec or better parts rifle that's properly fitted & assembled.
They are as tough & reliable as any AR clone you can buy over the counter for any price.
Keep in mind, I reject about 25% of the milspec parts that come in my door, I'm NOT easy on manufactures.
If it wouldn't pass in the Corps, it won't pass here, and it appears BCM does the same thing, but sells the finished product cheaper than I can often get the CORRECT parts for.
That doesn't include fitting, assembly or tuning...
If you are having to tune top end parts you may want to re-evaluate you suppliers. On my 7th build now and I have yet to tune a single build, they all run like raped apes out the gate. Before you give me some line, keep in mind I have daily access to some crazy expensive metrology equipment. Most of you guys would cry if I told you what I know about trigger groups (from many brands including "tier 1).
Marine M16s and M4s are nothing more special than all the other branches.
Well, there's holding tight tolerance and then there's mass production. If output rate and cost didn't matter, every critical part would be honed to the micron and verified on a Pratt Supermic. But then a Geissele would cost ten to fifty times its already steep price tag.
Generally, you can't hold tight tolerance with any "cutting" process; precision requires an abrading process-- grinding, lapping, etc. That's a step function increase in cost. Good design tries REALLY hard to make parts work well with basic milling/boring/reaming type cutting processes.
Top end parts can be very tight tolerance within themselves, but the stack up can still get you. Tool wear, calibration, and just a really tall stack can make things pretty tough.
Compared to most truly precision tasks, making a good AR is child's play. I work daily with parts required torque-honed match fits of 4 microns. A human hair is about 150 microns. But in that world, everyone knows its expensive and pays whatever it costs because whatever it takes is necessary.
YMMV, but I think the average person is best off building an Aero lower and buying a BCM upper of their choice. You can't put together an upper of comparable quality to a BCM for much less $$ anyway, and there's no point in spending big $$ on a lower that you'll probably end up swapping parts anyway. Build it the way you want from the get go and be done with it.
Generally, you can't hold tight tolerance with any "cutting" process; precision requires an abrading process-- grinding, lapping, etc. That's a step function increase in cost. Good design tries REALLY hard to make parts work well with basic milling/boring/reaming type cutting processes.
Top end parts can be very tight tolerance within themselves, but the stack up can still get you. Tool wear, calibration, and just a really tall stack can make things pretty tough.
Compared to most truly precision tasks, making a good AR is child's play. I work daily with parts required torque-honed match fits of 4 microns. A human hair is about 150 microns. But in that world, everyone knows its expensive and pays whatever it costs because whatever it takes is necessary.
YMMV, but I think the average person is best off building an Aero lower and buying a BCM upper of their choice. You can't put together an upper of comparable quality to a BCM for much less $$ anyway, and there's no point in spending big $$ on a lower that you'll probably end up swapping parts anyway. Build it the way you want from the get go and be done with it.
Follow up:
I don't believe "precision" and "AR" really belong together because they platform was never intended to be a precision tool. A precision upper would be made of steel, not aluminum. Too much flex in aluminum. ARs can achieve some really impressive results for what they are. But "horses for courses" applies here, too. Glocks run because they are sloppy as all get out. It's not a bug, it's a feature.
What makes an AR "quality"? Reliability? If so, then it's going to be overgassed and have more recoil than it should. (looking at you DD).
Or is it accuracy? If so, then it won't be as reliable when dirty.
Or is it durability? Then it won't be lightweight. Or cheap.
There are inherent limitations in the range of compromises you must make with a DI gun. You can optimize them for any particular direction, but it necessarily excludes some other desirable things.
And you most CERTAINLY will pass a point where more spending does NOT buy you more quality. I recently had the chance to check out an ultra-lightweight gun that will sell in the $3k plus range. For me, the value above any premium AR in the $2k range was basically none. A thousand bucks for a pound or two? not for me..
I don't believe "precision" and "AR" really belong together because they platform was never intended to be a precision tool. A precision upper would be made of steel, not aluminum. Too much flex in aluminum. ARs can achieve some really impressive results for what they are. But "horses for courses" applies here, too. Glocks run because they are sloppy as all get out. It's not a bug, it's a feature.
What makes an AR "quality"? Reliability? If so, then it's going to be overgassed and have more recoil than it should. (looking at you DD).
Or is it accuracy? If so, then it won't be as reliable when dirty.
Or is it durability? Then it won't be lightweight. Or cheap.
There are inherent limitations in the range of compromises you must make with a DI gun. You can optimize them for any particular direction, but it necessarily excludes some other desirable things.
And you most CERTAINLY will pass a point where more spending does NOT buy you more quality. I recently had the chance to check out an ultra-lightweight gun that will sell in the $3k plus range. For me, the value above any premium AR in the $2k range was basically none. A thousand bucks for a pound or two? not for me..
I've got a fairly lightweight seekins upper with a lower built up with a geisselle trigger. It holds less than 1 moa (precision), pretty lightweight (about half of my ddm4a1), and reliable with a suppressor and without (dirty and clean). In my book 1moa rifles are precision rifles, no matter what anyone says. Precision reliable ar's are the new norm.
Reliable - Rapid fire, no fail to feed/fail to eject, no wonky bs over the course of a day long training session. I've never had a fail out of the sub moa rifle described no matter what ammo i'm running.
Precision - 1" at 100 yards. Not talking elr, f class stuff here. 1MOA has been the standard of precision for most of my lifetime, recent times it's been much easier to get those results cheaply. 250 dollar bolt guns are coming with a 1 moa guarantee with factory ammo. The above mentioned seekins barreled upper shoots lights out all day with 62gr surplus. I had a piston driven stag factory rifle that also shot numerous classes failure free, but the best group I got out of it was probably 1.2 moa. Still highly accurate for a non free floated piston ar15.
Purpose built precision ar15s are highly capable and reliable while being fairly easy to come by or build. Following Primary Arms on facebook and they are regularly playing out 500 - 1 mile with ar15's
