Do you TRULY want a good AR-15 or do you want crap?

[Alpo]

Shooting groups is a slow process compared with a semi-auto's cycle rate. Yes, an AR15 can be very precise...but I was never fond of spending the day punching small holes in pieces of paper. Some guys love it.

 

[Trigger Time]

Shooting groups is a slow process compared with a semi-auto's cycle rate. Yes, an AR15 can be very precise...but I was never fond of spending the day punching small holes in pieces of paper. Some guys love it.

Yeah Its a totaly different mindset. Two separate days at the range for me. I like getting pumped up and shooting fast. Safe and accurate fast. But faaaaast.

 

[Alpo]

Yeah. I like the sound of a gong or steel. Feedback. We had an old bell set in a box (ricochets) at one of the ranges we used to go to. About 250 to 300 yards, depending were along the line you were. When paper got boring, the gong was rung.

I had a friend that was a cowboy shooter. A pretty good one. His dad gave him an AR15 and took him out to the range at Ben Avery. He hit every steel target set out for it at a very rapid pace. His dad told him to slow down. It wasn't "done" that way. He just smiled.

 

[KJQ6945]

Most fully semiautomatics aren't very slow and precise.

What about the Partially semi autos? They're slower, right?

 

[KJQ6945]

Stupid accurate ARs are as slow firing as bolt guns, as long as the guy paying for the Black Hills 77 gr ammo is behind the trigger.

 

[Leadeye]

I've only built one, never have had a stoppage.

 

[JJFII]

Stupid accurate ARs are as slow firing as bolt guns, as long as the guy paying for the Black Hills 77 gr ammo is behind the trigger.

I remember when that stuff was like $2 per round. Mag dumps for the rich and famous...

 

[ru44mag]

Yeah. I like the sound of a gong or steel. Feedback. We had an old bell set in a box (ricochets) at one of the ranges we used to go to. About 250 to 300 yards, depending were along the line you were. When paper got boring, the gong was rung.

I had a friend that was a cowboy shooter. A pretty good one. His dad gave him an AR15 and took him out to the range at Ben Avery. He hit every steel target set out for it at a very rapid pace. His dad told him to slow down. It wasn't "done" that way. He just smiled.

What about the Partially semi autos? They're slower, right?

INGO fun.

 

[Hohn]

When you say "all day" are you referring to how long it will take to shoot a group that backs up your statement?

Your statement implies something like 100% confidence of half MOA. I've yet to see ANY cost-no-object AR put even 90% of its rounds into a half MOA with handloads with a sample size large enough to make that 90% confidence legitimate (i.e. 30 rounds). Almost any AR can be "half moa" for a three shot group here or there. I've done it with my own DDM4 and factory Winchester 69SMK loads. And I am not any kind of skilled marksman.

Show me ANY AR that can put 90% of 30 rounds into a half-moa circle and you'll impress me.

But until then, I'll remain skeptical.

so you are saying a Factory built LaRue isnt going to produce .5 MOA? Shall we call Mark LaRue and see what he thinks about your comments against his rifles? I can guarantee you he would have a few choice words about putting your money where your mouth is. I have yet to see a Factory built LaRue Stealth / OBR shoot a normally crap group then occasionally a good one with an experienced shooter. You are paying for accuracy, but if you think thats all hype and I dont know Devildog70 is a bullpoop artist or not, but he clearly said and referred to a Factory LaRue and I will back him up on those words.... and like I said, we can contact Mr LaRue and inform him a professional shooter on the INGO forums is saying his rifles are not as good as he claims.

I have to believe your lack of comprehension is willful.

I'm not saying ANYTHING about LaRue or anyone else other than "if the shoe fits."

I laid out exactly what I meant. Do I need to repeat it? Apparently!

Try reading this a little more carefully: "I've yet to see ANY cost-no-object AR put even 90% of its rounds into a half MOA with handloads with a sample size large enough to make that 90% confidence legitimate (i.e. 30 rounds)...Show me ANY AR that can put 90% of 30 rounds into a half-moa circle and you'll impress me.

Why 30 rounds?

Because it's the Golden Rule for sample size: samples less than 30 have enough sampling error that the conclusive power is often invalid. People familiar with inferential stats know this general rule (which is NOT the same as the true statistical "power" of a sample, which is not worth belaboring here). The approximation of group dispersion as a "normal" distribution seems reasonable to me.


I said nothing about Larue or anybody. Now if YOU want to apply what I said to Larue or anyone else, go right ahead. Show me the target with 27/30 rounds or more inside 0.5 MOA and-- AS I POSTED-- I'll be impressed.


Nobody said Larue isn't an excellent rifle (though why you'd buy his barrels instead of just getting them directly from Lothar is beyond me). Nobody said Larue's guarantee is bogus. Surely a Larue can put three rounds inside an MOA as Mark guarantees. I'm struggling to see how putting 3 rounds into one MOA proves that it can put 27/30 into a HALF MOA though? Only a person who had no clue about the massive disparity in capability represented by those two measures could possibly confuse them.

Mark Larue is not clueless. And he would NEVER claim his rifles can put 27/30 into a half moa because he knows just how far that is from a 3-shot MOA guarantee. And I'm confident that he'd feel uncomfortable if a zealous and well meaning but ignorant customer tried to parlay his 1-moa-for-three-shots guarantee into a 27/30 into half moa guarantee.

Maybe instead of arguing with an argument of your own construction, you could try reading what I wrote and addressing that instead.

 

[Hohn]

The comment was not about 30rds into a .5 moa group. It was about consistently putting out .9 and under.

Your master shooter said that he's never seen a high end rifle do that and then he added the 30rd in 0.5 moa claim

The comment I replied to was saying that you can get "half MOA all day", then offered as proof some anecdotes that he hasn't seen a group larger than an MOA. Well, nice. But not larger than a full MOA and smaller than a half MOA aren't even close to the same thing in magnitude or in logic.


I've laid out what I consider to be a reasonable demonstration that would prove the claim made of "all day" accuracy of one-half MOA.

Post the target, please.

Or better, yet, post the video of Mark Larue trying to explain to you on the phone why 3 shots < 1 MOA isn't the same as 90% < half MOA.

You can continue to embarass yourself by trying to make this about me or my qualifications, but non-sequiturs and ad hominems won't get you far.

 

[JollyMon]

 

[Ggreen]

Not an attempt to keep stirring this terd bowl, but... I've never seen a precision rifle advertised with a 30round sample anywhere ever. I don't know where the 30rd at 1/2moa gold standard even comes from as I've never heard it before. Sniper central rates their guns on a 3 to 5 shot grouping and repeatability of that group. I don't think I've seen them post a 30rd target before. To me they are the gold standard of practical precision gear ratings. I've always seen precision bolt guns sold with 3 or 5 shot groups as their verifier. Arfcom is full of larue customer targets that beat the factory target, it was even a thing and he gave a shirt or something away for anyone proving they beat his test shooters group. No reason a gun that shoots .5moa in 3 shots will not do it for the next 27 shots as long as the person pulling the trigger is doing their job. Barrel will heat up and cause impact issues depending on rate of fire, but running at bolt gun speeds it won't be major or really noticeable with a good barrel

 

[Alpo]

I think we might be confusing statistical probability and sampling. 30 shots as a sample from some population of shots, selected randomly will generally give you a group about which you may make observations and conclusions with some high degree of statistically valid confidence. However, 30 shots in a row is not a sample. It's a group.

Can we put this to bed? What most people are saying is: My rifle/carbine and a Lead Sled will produce sub-moa accuracy. I don't really give a hoot. So what? Are you going to carry a Lead Sled around when TSHTF? You might have one or something similar when going after prairie dogs, but c'mon fellas....unless you are in reasonable physical shape and practice frequently, I doubt whether you or most of us could produce sub-moa groups on demand. I know I was surprised the last time I went out in the field with a low power scope and attempted to ring steel at long distances. Cataracts are setting in.

 

[Trigger Time]

Sub MOA consistently with a quality AR meant for precision? Yep it's common among good shooters that practice regularly like alpo just said. The in shape part will matter for consistency. I'm not in shape anymore but I can shoot sub moa still. Not all day though

When I'm practicing with an AR and I'm aiming (simulated target)for the tip of a nose and I hit a nostril, I'm ok with that. Hell I'll take an eyeball. If it's a bad guy, think hes gonna know the difference?
I just like going out and shoulder firing and putting them into the target and if it's a silhouette I aim center chest. I dont measure them.i dont give a crap. If I want to play sniper I'll use one of my bolt guns and throw on a real hand made ghille suite and crawl around in the dirt. Yeah not gonna happen

 

[Alpo]

I thought I saw [name deleted to protect the identity of INGO member] at the range in a ghillie suit....but it was just chest hair.

 

[Ggreen]

Accuracy is not a good measuring stick for all ar's. there are a lot (if not most) of Ar15's that are built to minute of man rather than minute of angle. They can be built to either end of the accuracy spectrum and for just about any intended role. My 7.5" pistol is not made with the thought of going out and competing in High power matches, and run and gun ar15's are generally not going to be built the same as a defense minded ar15. The wonderful thing about the ar15 platform is its adaptability and wide variety of applications across the shooting and cost spectrums. BCM is not the answer for the guy who is shooting a lot of multigun, nor is it the answer for someone into high power. Does not diminish it as a well built ar, it also does not put it above a high quality homebuilt ar that is designed for prairie dogging or gaming. A person that does not take classes or shoot competitively would probably never notice the difference between their dpms and a friends 6920. So what does it all really matter anyway? I've seen a psa run all day in a high volume class, and I've seen a dd have running issues over the course of lightfire while at the range having fun. Odds are you will have less issues going with a dd, colt, bcm over an ati psa or whatever other discount brand if you shoot a lot. Most people, vast majority of ar15 owners shoot their ar's maybe 3 or 4 times a year. Some guys can only get a check from the wife for a budget ar, even if they save longer, so what. Get what you can afford, ask for help when you need it, and have fun. No one is deploying to the middle east with an ar15 they have sitting at home. If SHTF, it only has to work once and hopefully you can get a pick up ak47. Competitors probably put the most demand on their ar15's from a civilian standpoint and a lot of them are running homebuilt or custom build of some kind. Police most likely have to qualify and or buy their privately owned service rifle from a list (if they are allowed to carry their private rifle on duty). So what does it all really matter?

 

[Alpo]

True dat.

 

[JeepHammer]

If you are having to tune top end parts you may want to re-evaluate you suppliers. On my 7th build now and I have yet to tune a single build, they all run like raped apes out the gate. Before you give me some line, keep in mind I have daily access to some crazy expensive metrology equipment. Most of you guys would cry if I told you what I know about trigger groups (from many brands including "tier 1).

Marine M16s and M4s are nothing more special than all the other branches.

What you missed,
I didn't build out of the box M16s or M4s, military suppliers build those.
I built at Marine Corps Special Weapons, for sniper teams, etc.
Along with hyper accuracy, these weapons don't always shoot standard military ammunition and need tuning, for operation, accuracy and ammunition adaptations.

 

[ogtruckin]

every time i go to build a rifle i always tell myself it's going to be a budget build. just a cheap truck gun. It has never worked out that way.

 

[Hohn]

Not an attempt to keep stirring this terd bowl, but... I've never seen a precision rifle advertised with a 30round sample anywhere ever. I don't know where the 30rd at 1/2moa gold standard even comes from as I've never heard it before. Sniper central rates their guns on a 3 to 5 shot grouping and repeatability of that group. I don't think I've seen them post a 30rd target before. To me they are the gold standard of practical precision gear ratings. I've always seen precision bolt guns sold with 3 or 5 shot groups as their verifier. Arfcom is full of larue customer targets that beat the factory target, it was even a thing and he gave a shirt or something away for anyone proving they beat his test shooters group. No reason a gun that shoots .5moa in 3 shots will not do it for the next 27 shots as long as the person pulling the trigger is doing their job. Barrel will heat up and cause impact issues depending on rate of fire, but running at bolt gun speeds it won't be major or really noticeable with a good barrel

It comes from statistics and sampling. A sample size of N>30 is generally (not always) sufficient to produce a sampling error of the mean low enough that you can support a statement as statistically valid.

I suppose I could have simplified it this way: "half MOA all day" isn't a conclusion even remotely justified by the evidence offered. Of course, the truth of that statement depends on what is meant by "all day."

I fleshed out a definition, and in doing so, showed why the statement is baloney. There are no "half MOA all day" ARs.

Even this JP LRP-07 isn't a "half MOA all day" gun:

At only the 75%-of-time confidence level, the LRP-07 is Just over 0.8 MOA. That's only 75% of the time. Not 90%. Not "all day." Note, these are only five shot groups, but it's still a large sample because it's taken from many five shot groups. (NOTE: the Custom Bolt Action is a Surgeon bolt gun, and even that rifle is not "all day" under half MOA).


Now maybe an LRP-07 isn't a very good rifle in 6.5CM. Maybe JP doesn't know how to make accurate rifles. And maybe--just maybe-- someone has figured out how to cut the average group size of the LRP-07 in half and can do it "all day."


I think that's unlikely.

You'll understand my skepticism of claims that ANY semi-auto is "all day" accurate to < 0.5MOA.