Do you TRULY want a good AR-15 or do you want crap?

[devildog70]

Follow up:

I don't believe "precision" and "AR" really belong together because they platform was never intended to be a precision tool. A precision upper would be made of steel, not aluminum. Too much flex in aluminum. ARs can achieve some really impressive results for what they are. But "horses for courses" applies here, too. Glocks run because they are sloppy as all get out. It's not a bug, it's a feature.

What makes an AR "quality"? Reliability? If so, then it's going to be overgassed and have more recoil than it should. (looking at you DD).

Or is it accuracy? If so, then it won't be as reliable when dirty.

Or is it durability? Then it won't be lightweight. Or cheap.


There are inherent limitations in the range of compromises you must make with a DI gun. You can optimize them for any particular direction, but it necessarily excludes some other desirable things.


And you most CERTAINLY will pass a point where more spending does NOT buy you more quality. I recently had the chance to check out an ultra-lightweight gun that will sell in the $3k plus range. For me, the value above any premium AR in the $2k range was basically none. A thousand bucks for a pound or two? not for me..

Sorry man, you can get 0.5 MOA in DI all day now. If your definition of useable precision is tighter than that, I want to see what guns you are looking at.

The largest group I have ever seen from a Larue, by the factory is right at 0.9 (3 shots). The owner regularly busts out groups in the 0.4 range (5-shots). My personal OBR is 0.45 all day, with a couple groups in the 0.36 range. That's with me shooting, and I'm not the best shooter.

 

[Johnny C]

Bought my first AR right before Obama took office. It was a franken-gun built on a bushmaster lower.
Didnt really like ARs at the time... being a wood and blued steel guy... but thought they were going to be banned, so dropped the hammer on it.
It grew on me.
A few years later, bought a LMT piston upper from the classifieds and built up a POF lower using a 2 stage Gold trigger. Nice Gun! Still have it decked out an ACOG.
Then sold the Bushy to a buddy who wanted an AR but could not afford one.
A few years ago, decided to get into SBRs and did 2 form 1 builds.
Bought a 7.62 x 39 PWS Diablo upper and built up another POF lower to strap it on.
At the same time, bought an Vltor monolythic upper in the classifieds with a 10.5" Noveske switchblock barrel and slapped it on a Spikes skull lower with a POF single stage trigger pack.
Then... picked up a LMT MWS.
Other than the origional bushy... My ARs have some high $ parts and run like sewing machines.
Lukily, I have had the $ to buy nice parts.
Next up... A .300 6.5" SBR upper.

 

[NKBJ]

Yeah, I don't like AR's either. But that's what my wife likes to shoot and after seventy years there's no point in making her unhappy. Uh, especially when she shoots an AR like she does.

 

[Hohn]

Sorry man, you can get 0.5 MOA in DI all day now. If your definition of useable precision is tighter than that, I want to see what guns you are looking at.

The largest group I have ever seen from a Larue, by the factory is right at 0.9 (3 shots). The owner regularly busts out groups in the 0.4 range (5-shots). My personal OBR is 0.45 all day, with a couple groups in the 0.36 range. That's with me shooting, and I'm not the best shooter.

When you say "all day" are you referring to how long it will take to shoot a group that backs up your statement?

Your statement implies something like 100% confidence of half MOA. I've yet to see ANY cost-no-object AR put even 90% of its rounds into a half MOA with handloads with a sample size large enough to make that 90% confidence legitimate (i.e. 30 rounds). Almost any AR can be "half moa" for a three shot group here or there. I've done it with my own DDM4 and factory Winchester 69SMK loads. And I am not any kind of skilled marksman.

Show me ANY AR that can put 90% of 30 rounds into a half-moa circle and you'll impress me.

But until then, I'll remain skeptical.

 

[churchmouse]

Yeah, I don't like AR's either. But that's what my wife likes to shoot and after seventy years there's no point in making her unhappy. Uh, especially when she shoots an AR like she does.

A wise man...

 

[Hop]

When you say "all day" are you referring to how long it will take to shoot a group that backs up your statement?

Your statement implies something like 100% confidence of half MOA. I've yet to see ANY cost-no-object AR put even 90% of its rounds into a half MOA with handloads with a sample size large enough to make that 90% confidence legitimate (i.e. 30 rounds). Almost any AR can be "half moa" for a three shot group here or there. I've done it with my own DDM4 and factory Winchester 69SMK loads. And I am not any kind of skilled marksman.

Show me ANY AR that can put 90% of 30 rounds into a half-moa circle and you'll impress me.

But until then, I'll remain skeptical.

I thought the 1/2 MOA claim to be a little on the exaggerated side myself. I rarely see people get three holes that touch @ 25 yards (~1 MOA) let alone into the same hole. Then again, I'm used to a single ragged hole using only a sling. Maybe I should buy a lead sled.

 

[NKBJ]

I thought the 1/2 MOA claim to be a little on the exaggerated side myself. I rarely see people get three holes that touch @ 25 yards (~1 MOA) let alone into the same hole. Then again, I'm used to a single ragged hole using only a sling. Maybe I should buy a lead sled.

There's nothing unusual with having holes touching. Not if you shoot a .58.

 

[NKBJ]

Or a .62!

[video]https://imgur.com/Ps8eIm0[/video]

 

[JJFII]

When you say "all day" are you referring to how long it will take to shoot a group that backs up your statement?

Your statement implies something like 100% confidence of half MOA. I've yet to see ANY cost-no-object AR put even 90% of its rounds into a half MOA with handloads with a sample size large enough to make that 90% confidence legitimate (i.e. 30 rounds). Almost any AR can be "half moa" for a three shot group here or there. I've done it with my own DDM4 and factory Winchester 69SMK loads. And I am not any kind of skilled marksman.

Show me ANY AR that can put 90% of 30 rounds into a half-moa circle and you'll impress me.

But until then, I'll remain skeptical.

so you are saying a Factory built LaRue isnt going to produce .5 MOA? Shall we call Mark LaRue and see what he thinks about your comments against his rifles? I can guarantee you he would have a few choice words about putting your money where your mouth is. I have yet to see a Factory built LaRue Stealth / OBR shoot a normally crap group then occasionally a good one with an experienced shooter. You are paying for accuracy, but if you think thats all hype and I dont know Devildog70 is a bullpoop artist or not, but he clearly said and referred to a Factory LaRue and I will back him up on those words.... and like I said, we can contact Mr LaRue and inform him a professional shooter on the INGO forums is saying his rifles are not as good as he claims.

 

[KJQ6945]

.....................

 

[rhino]

so you are saying a Factory built LaRue isnt going to produce .5 MOA? Shall we call Mark LaRue and see what he thinks about your comments against his rifles? I can guarantee you he would have a few choice words about putting your money where your mouth is. I have yet to see a Factory built LaRue Stealth / OBR shoot a normally crap group then occasionally a good one with an experienced shooter. You are paying for accuracy, but if you think thats all hype and I dont know Devildog70 is a bullpoop artist or not, but he clearly said and referred to a Factory LaRue and I will back him up on those words.... and like I said, we can contact Mr LaRue and inform him a professional shooter on the INGO forums is saying his rifles are not as good as he claims.

To be fair, the point of contention seems to focus on whether or not being able to fire three shots in a half MOA group is sufficiient for claiming that the rifle is "capable of half MOA." What number of shots into an MOA group does Larue claim? If it's 3 rounds, then it's valid from the point of view of the claim, but perhaps not by the subjectivet satandard of 30 rounds into a half MOA group.

Given that, I short of a dedicated bench rest rifle, I would be surprised to see results of any rifle firing 30 rounds into a one half MOA group on a consistent basis.

What number of shots needs to be fired in the group to then qualify a rifle as capable of shooting that size group? 3? 5? 7? 30 seems excessive to me, but I'm a novice at this.

 

[KJQ6945]

 

[rhino]

KJQ6945 - thank you, sir!

 

[JJFII]

The comment was not about 30rds into a .5 moa group. It was about consistently putting out .9 and under.

Your master shooter said that he's never seen a high end rifle do that and then he added the 30rd in 0.5 moa claim

well maybe he's never seen a high end rifle, cause I have seen this many many times by good shooters using good equipment...I'm sorry DD isnt going to cut it in this debate...nor will Colt, nor will BCM ...

 

[KJQ6945]

KJQ6945 - thank you, sir!

You are very welcome. I had it pulled up earlier, so I thought I'd share.

Sub MOA is definitely possible from a DI AR, but it's generally not cheap, and it's not that common. If it was, Crane wouldn't have developed the MK12.

 

[KJQ6945]

The comment was not about 30rds into a .5 moa group. It was about consistently putting out .9 and under.

Your master shooter said that he's never seen a high end rifle do that and then he added the 30rd in 0.5 moa claim

well maybe he's never seen a high end rifle, cause I have seen this many many times by good shooters using good equipment...I'm sorry DD isnt going to cut it in this debate...nor will Colt, nor will BCM ...

Ok, in this thread you are advocating for high dollar, top end factory guns. In the other thread, you are singing the praises of home built crap. Dude, pick a side and own it. There's no shame in either gun, but, obviously they are not the same.

 

[bwframe]

It's pretty rare for folks to post pics of their legit 1/2" groups. Especially shot more than once on the same sheet, with more than three shots in the group.

 

[rhino]

It's pretty rare for folks to post pics of their legit 1/2" groups. Especially shot more than once on the same sheet, with more than three shots in the group.

There is a very good reason for dearth of such photos!

 

[Alpo]

I never really thought of an AR15 as a slow, precise firearm. Who has time for groups?

 

[foszoe]

Most fully semiautomatics aren't very slow and precise.

I never really thought of an AR15 as a slow, precise firearm. Who has time for groups?