Dispelling the ‘Few Extremists’ Myth – the Muslim World Is Overcome with Hate

[steveh_131]

I've answered you as best I can. The founder of the religion believed so. The Quran says Allah is the God Abraham submitted to. I think if you explained what a Baptist is, they would disagree on the details but that its the same god. Catholic, the trinity concept would likely reduce the number who see it as the same god. I'd point out there is a strong Catholic contingent in Jordan, though, so I could be wrong.

Do you know of any Muslims who believe that God sent His son, Jesus, to lead a perfect life and then be crucified so that the world could be offered forgiveness and eternal life with God?

That is the God that Christians worship. That is the God of the Old Testament. Anyone who does not believe it is worshiping a different being.

 

[indiucky]

What this forum has in BBI is a very articulate and all around good guy who can answer questions many of us have and do it in a way that even I can follow...His thread on his visit to the Middle East was epic and I have been reading every post he has made here and have even went home in the evening to learn a little more...Last night I was so angry that GFGT and BBI (both friends of mine) were kind of going at it I wanted to punch my computer and was hoping a mod would lock the thread...

Now I am coming on here and getting a crash course from a source I trust in a Faith I know very little about.... I hope this thread keeps going...What a difference 24 hours can make...Thanks for sorting this out GFGT and BBI....And to BBI thanks for your patience with us and sticking around...

 

[steveh_131]

I have nothing in this conversation but to be an observer. I feel I can only weigh in on matters of logic. If what religions say their God says is a criterion for determining they aren't worshiping the same god, doesn't logical consistency require that the same principle be applied within Christian sects?

Muslims say God says different things than Christians say God says. Wouldn' it follow that some Christians then believe in different a different God? And it's not all just a matter of interpretation. The Quran is a book that Christians don't accept as cannon, which contains many claims about what God has said. There are many books in Christianity that not all Christians accept as Cannon that contain claims of what God has said. Most Christians don't accept the Book of Mormon. Several books accepted by Catholics aren't accepted by Protestants or Mormons. Given those differences, do Catholics, Mormons, and Protestants all worship different gods?

Yes, I think that it does. I think that some of these things can be categorized as more minor details compared to fundamental differences in the very nature of the God that we worship.

Worship is the key word here. You're showing reverence and adoration for God when you worship. A part of that is acknowledging His attributes and His nature, and showing appreciation for that. If you're fundamentally incorrect about his attributes and His nature then you're not worshiping God.

 

[historian]

I have nothing in this conversation but to be an observer. I feel I can only weigh in on matters of logic. If what religions say their God says is a criterion for determining they aren't worshiping the same god, doesn't logical consistency require that the same principle be applied within Christian sects?

Muslims say God says different things than Christians say God says. Wouldn' it follow that some Christians then believe in different a different God? And it's not all just a matter of interpretation. The Quran is a book that Christians don't accept as cannon, which contains many claims about what God has said. There are many books in Christianity that not all Christians accept as Cannon that contain claims of what God has said. Most Christians don't accept the Book of Mormon. Several books accepted by Catholics aren't accepted by Protestants or Mormons. Given those differences, do Catholics, Mormons, and Protestants all worship different gods?

These creed is a good summary of the faith. Everything else is differences of doctrine:

Apostle's Creed:
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God’s only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Do you know of any Muslims who believe that God sent His son, Jesus, to lead a perfect life and then be crucified so that the world could be offered forgiveness and eternal life with God?

That is the God that Christians worship. That is the God of the Old Testament. Anyone who does not believe it is worshiping a different being.

I'm probably the only one on INGO with that going on, though. You are arguing I misunderstand the nature of God, not that it is a different God. I find coconut to be disgusting. You may love coconut. We disagree on the nature of coconut, but we're talking about the same thing. Regardless, it's a distinction that is more important to you than to me.

Muslims say God says different things than Christians say God says. Wouldn' it follow that some Christians then believe in different a different God? And it's not all just a matter of interpretation. The Quran is a book that Christians don't accept as cannon, which contains many claims about what God has said. There are many books in Christianity that not all Christians accept as Cannon that contain claims of what God has said. Most Christians don't accept the Book of Mormon. Several books accepted by Catholics aren't accepted by Protestants or Mormons. Given those differences, do Catholics, Mormons, and Protestants all worship different gods?

Uh, yeah, that. Except with coconut.

So did you have to learn Arabic? The guy seemed to find any translation of the Koran as almost an abomination? Just curious as I know it seems like English translations are fairly prolific here. I assume if they are used here, then the local converts don't have that same belief.

He also was trying to explain to me about the tracks of Abraham showed that the people back then were actually giants compared to modern man. Is this a tenet of the faith or just an interesting observation he was making?

Yes. Translations are never quite right, I think we can agree on that regardless of what language to what language is under consideration. Dirty little secret, though, I've forgotten most of it. It's been so long since I used it that it's mostly fallen out of my head. I was never to the level I would consider fluent, regardless, but I could read and have simple conversation. After 10 years of neglect of the skill, I could probably not read Little Red Riding Hood. A failure on my part, I'm just too comfortable with English translation and then the explanatory text offered with it. I think I understand better that way then in a language I sorta/kinda get. Plus Arabic is hard. *whine* why can't they use regular letters??? Technically a translation is not a Quran, its a translation of the Quran, and that's often an important distinction.

**Edited to add**

The translations are sort of like children's books. They are primers, used until you can digest more and more and eventually master Arabic and not need the crutch of translation any longer. I sort of stalled in the toddler phase of that process and then regressed back to infant level. If I'd stuck with it, I'd probably be proficient, but instead I failed and am basically sticking alphabet blocks in my mouth to try and figure out what sound they make again.

 

[1DOWN4UP]

General Question? Since Abraham also spent his time being a father to Ishmael,at what point did his teachings of his faith begin to differ between the two branches of his linage?

 

[jamil]

Uh, yeah, that. Except with coconut.

When you learn to speak fluent jamil, it makes perfect sense.

 

[steveh_131]

I'm probably the only one on INGO with that going on, though. You are arguing I misunderstand the nature of God, not that it is a different God. I find coconut to be disgusting. You may love coconut. We disagree on the nature of coconut, but we're talking about the same thing. Regardless, it's a distinction that is more important to you than to me.

No, we disagree on our opinion of a coconut.

A better analogy would be if you tell me that you love coconuts because of their yellow color, soft flesh, and convenient peel - that's not a coconut and we aren't talking about the same fruit. And if you're counting on a drink of coconut milk to keep you alive, good luck.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

General Question? Since Abraham also spent his time being a father to Ishmael,at what point did his teachings of his faith begin to differ between the two branches of his linage?

I've no idea, and certainly not qualified to even attempt to answer that.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

No, we disagree on our opinion of a coconut.

A better analogy would be if you tell me that you love coconuts because of their yellow color, soft flesh, and convenient peel - that's not a coconut and we aren't talking about the same fruit. And if you're counting on a drink of coconut milk to keep you alive, good luck.

...I think that's a banana. It's a banana isn't it?

I almost went with lemon, but the convenient peel thing made me change my mind.

 

[steveh_131]

Yes it's a banana.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Do you know of any Muslims who believe that God sent His son, Jesus, to lead a perfect life and then be crucified so that the world could be offered forgiveness and eternal life with God?

That is the God that Christians worship. That is the God of the Old Testament. Anyone who does not believe it is worshiping a different being.

But Steve, using your logic, do jews worship the same god as us Christians do?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Again, what school? If you've gotten nothing else out if this, can you get that "Muslim" encompasses a lot of ideologies and schools of thought, some if which conflict? Also, I'm not sure the average Muslim knows that Christians are not a bloc, especially beyond Catholic/Protestant.

I've answered you as best I can. The founder of the religion believed so. The Quran says Allah is the God Abraham submitted to. I think if you explained what a Baptist is, they would disagree on the details but that its the same god. Catholic, the trinity concept would likely reduce the number who see it as the same god. I'd point out there is a strong Catholic contingent in Jordan, though, so I could be wrong.

Interesting. While my knowledge of Christianity is based on what I've experienced, here in the states and cannot speak to what others, say those from Ethiopa, Iraq, etc. believe I am of the understanding that while catholics disagree with baptists (for example) about certain rites, traditions, interpretations, and methods of worshipping, (among other things) we all believe in the same God and that Jesus Christ is his son, sent to earth to pay for our sins and provide salvation.

I used to be of the understanding that the god of islam and that of Christianity were one and the same but over the years of reading and hearing what muslims think and say, I have moved away from that understanding.

 

[steveh_131]

But Steve, using your logic, do jews worship the same god as us Christians do?

I think that you could make that argument if they're correctly interpreting the Old Testament.

That does not mean they're going to heaven, though.

 

[PaulKersey]

But Steve, using your logic, do jews worship the same god as us Christians do?

I don't mean to impose, but strictly speaking Jews and Christians do not worship the same God because the Jews deny the deity of Jesus Christ, one third of the Godhead. By the way, the Muslim denial of Christ's deity demonstrates that Islam and Christianity have totally distinct views of God. You can't have it both ways - they make mutually exclusive claims - logically, both cannot be correct.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Too many minds that are sealed shut. Fear and bandwagons, oh and Trump...how people can even listen to a word he says is beyond me. Indiana isn't REALLY known for it's tolerance or so called hoosier hospitality. Its pretty similar when anything about homosexuality is brought up. People in this state (majority, but not everyone) have been schooled by their parents, and them by their parents, to inherit their values and beliefs. Some people decide to think for themselves, and choose what is right, wrong, and acceptable based on their own life and not of their parents. The majority stick to how they were raised though.

My condolences.

I don't have anything in particular against anyone of ANY religious persuasion (or none, as it may be) HOWEVER, I'm not blind - nor will I pretend to be blind - to the stated intentions of a fairly large sect of the religion which has promised me and mine forced conversion, slavery or death. Since I have no way to tell WHICH of this sizable section of the world's population is bent toward that goal, I'm inclined - reasonable enough - to be wary of anyone who fits the profile. And, just as we didn't separate the Nazis from Germans when we bombed and shot our way through Europe to defeat them during WWII, unless Muslims do something visible and tangible to separate themselves from this "radical" sect, I don't know how else we're going to solve our problem but to separate "Muslims" from the rest of us. Not an ideal solution, but unless someone comes up with a better one, we may have to go with that one.

And I will say this. It may not be a great solution, to kill everyone who raises a hand against us; then to kill their families, burn their farms, kill their animals, and salt their farmland so that it won't produce for hundreds of years. But as the Romans showed the Carthaginians, it IS a solution.

 

[findingZzero]

I think that you could make that argument if they're correctly interpreting the Old Testament.

That does not mean they're going to heaven, though.

Well freakin' awright then. I don't want to spend eternity with either my brethren, or you Christians. I'm thinking the Swedish bikini team....non denominational of course..

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Do we not see most the muslims who move here doing that? Shoot most of the muslim terrorist attacks have occured by people who made it a point to fit in.
I don't see muslims not assimilating anymore that we would moving somewhere else, i.e. keeping religion and traditions while learning the language and outwardly doing their best to fit in.

From what I've heard, the Somali parts of Minneapolis, MN are called "Little Mogadishu" because they refuse to assimilate. Places like Dearborn MI feel comfortable harassing Christians on their streets. THAT IS NOT ASSIMILATION. Of course, Muslims aren't the only ones who want to come to this country and want it to be just like their "home" country - with the exception that the government gives them more goodies than at home. If someone wants to visit here and then go home; no problem. But if they want to move here, live here, then they should be willing to learn the predominant language, adopt the local culture and values (usually taught through citizenship classes and (used to be) schools) and generally give their allegiance to their new home. Lately we've been importing sizable numbers of folks who aren't - for one reason or another - interested in doing that. Just looking at the examples in England and France and Sweden, we can see how this doesn't work out very well.

Muslims don't and haven't had a lock on "sectarian violence" certainly; Christians have rationalized religious reasons to kill one another over the years as well, and Hindus don't often get along with other religions either, but it's currently primarily this "radical" Islamic sect that's killing largely innocent people in the name of their religion, and unlike in the past, this doesn't seem to be a "tribal-based" conflict, but an actual "religious" war.

 

[KJQ6945]

I don't have anything in particular against anyone of ANY religious persuasion (or none, as it may be) HOWEVER, I'm not blind - nor will I pretend to be blind - to the stated intentions of a fairly large sect of the religion which has promised me and mine forced conversion, slavery or death. Since I have no way to tell WHICH of this sizable section of the world's population is bent toward that goal, I'm inclined - reasonable enough - to be wary of anyone who fits the profile. And, just as we didn't separate the Nazis from Germans when we bombed and shot our way through Europe to defeat them during WWII, unless Muslims do something visible and tangible to separate themselves from this "radical" sect, I don't know how else we're going to solve our problem but to separate "Muslims" from the rest of us. Not an ideal solution, but unless someone comes up with a better one, we may have to go with that one.

And I will say this. It may not be a great solution, to kill everyone who raises a hand against us; then to kill their families, burn their farms, kill their animals, and salt their farmland so that it won't produce for hundreds of years. But as the Romans showed the Carthaginians, it IS a solution.

This pretty much sums it up.

This thread has really laid down some impressive tracks. Maybe it's time to change the title. Anybody have an appropriate new title?

 

[LPMan59]

Since I'm a relatively uneducated person, can someone point me to an idiot american's guide to Islam? I find religious history to be fascinating.

is there maybe an annotated version of the Koran that might help to explain/interpret the passages?

Id like to get a better understanding of Islam as a whole- from its early history to more general explanation of the different sects.