Dispelling the ‘Few Extremists’ Myth – the Muslim World Is Overcome with Hate

[GodFearinGunTotin]

If God is infinite, though, does God not have more than one form (or any form)? Can you not believe in him without believing in a specific notion of him? As a hypothetical, let's say I believed in God as the source of kharma or as some collective that everything that exists is part of (which, I suppose, has to be true if God is infinite) instead of believing God is the Abrahamic God and that Jesus is his literal son, but I lead a good life, am just, and charitable, etc. etc., then what? Do I get a segregated heaven, or do I get nothing, or do I get hell? Especially given how much of religion is predicated on the time and culture we're born in, I just have a tough time with that.

What does Islam believe?

Me? I believe the Bible says what is says and Jesus meant exactly what he said. Having said that , I believe the final judgement is God's and He will do whatever He wants.

 

[steveh_131]

If God is infinite, though, does God not have more than one form (or any form)? Can you not believe in him without believing in a specific notion of him? As a hypothetical, let's say I believed in God as the source of kharma or as some collective that everything that exists is part of (which, I suppose, has to be true if God is infinite) instead of believing God is the Abrahamic God and that Jesus is his literal son, but I lead a good life, am just, and charitable, etc. etc., then what? Do I get a segregated heaven, or do I get nothing, or do I get hell? Especially given how much of religion is predicated on the time and culture we're born in, I just have a tough time with that.

No.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ​John 14:6

 

[ajeandy]

No.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ​John 14:6

Hogwarts is real.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

What does Islam believe?

Me? I believe the Bible says what is says and Jesus meant exactly what he said. Having said that , I believe the final judgement is God's and He will do whatever He wants.

Which school? Mohammed did not encourage conversion, and did not teach Islam was the only religion. It was for sons of Ismail, and Judaism was for sons of Isaac. The "People of the Book" concept was that Muslims were not a separate religion, but a continuation of existing religion, tailored for the time and location.

 

[rvb]

If God is infinite, though, does God not have more than one form (or any form)? Can you not believe in him without believing in a specific notion of him? As a hypothetical, let's say I believed in God as the source of kharma or as some collective that everything that exists is part of (which, I suppose, has to be true if God is infinite) instead of believing God is the Abrahamic God and that Jesus is his literal son, but I lead a good life, am just, and charitable, etc. etc., then what? Do I get a segregated heaven, or do I get nothing, or do I get hell? Especially given how much of religion is predicated on the time and culture we're born in, I just have a tough time with that.

Jesus tells us (through the Christian Bible) that He, Jesus, is "The Way." In fact, the early church was often known as "The Way." To Christians, it is truly belief in Christ, not just "God." Jesus tells us "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. " (John 4:16)

Yes, I believe that to know of Christ and not believe He is divine will result in hell.

That soon evolves into a very complicated discussion, of which my understanding is truthfully a bit immature to be trying to explain it, on the salvation of those who have not had the opportunity to hear about Christ (time/culture). For instance, faith in God before Jesus came as a man.... Abraham was certainly admitted to the Kingdom of God, and had a strong faith in God and faith Christ would come even though he hadn't seen him personally during his time on Earth (John 8:56)

-rvb

 

[rvb]

It was for sons of Ismail, and Judaism was for sons of Isaac. .

This is interesting to me. I've heard this before, and when I looked into some because from an historical perspective I wanted to learn more, I found several Muslim websites that considered it 'insulting' (for lack of a better word) that the Judeo-Christian background comes from Isaac and Muslim from Ishmael. This was because of how the OT description of Ishmael (Gen 16:10-12)... "He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

-rvb

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This is interesting to me. I've heard this before, and when I looked into some because from an historical perspective I wanted to learn more, I found several Muslim websites that considered it 'insulting' (for lack of a better word) that the Judeo-Christian background comes from Isaac and Muslim from Ishmael. This was because of how the OT description of Ishmael (Gen 16:10-12)... "He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

-rvb

There are certainly different schools of thought. I mentioned on if Budha was a prophet or not, for example. Islam in it's original form was very simple but it built within itself the capacity for change. There was an explicit realization that a religion of a tribe fighting for existence in hostile territory was not the same as would be required in a peaceful kingdom or in a more complex society. It's sort of like the founding of our nation. Things have changed a lot, but because the basic framework allowed for change the basic tenants are still held true. Something that is static and rigid that works for a tribe will fall apart for a city state or for a modern nation, be that an economoic system, a legal system, or a religion.

 

[PaulKersey]

Regarding the idea that our belief system or the religion we choose is predicated on the culture and family we are born into is based on an assumption, and that assumption is that where and when you are born is random and not divinely controlled. I agree with the concepts of Molinism, the idea that God's middle knowledge allows Him to know all things, including what a man would have done in any possible environment or circumstance. Those who complain that the sad state of our current world reflects God's lack of involvement have not stopped to consider that this current reality may, in fact, be the best possible setting for the maximum number of people to come to faith in Christ. The great philosopher and Christian apologist William Lane Craig writes extensively on these topics, both in print and at his website, reasonablefaith.org.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Which school? Mohammed did not encourage conversion, and did not teach Islam was the only religion. It was for sons of Ismail, and Judaism was for sons of Isaac. The "People of the Book" concept was that Muslims were not a separate religion, but a continuation of existing religion, tailored for the time and location.

Do most of today's muslims believe islam is the only religion?
Is allah, the God of Abraham, Issaac, and Jacob?

 

[JTScribe]

Do most of today's muslims believe islam is the only religion?
Is allah, the God of Abraham, Issaac, and Jacob?

Does the Shahada not say, "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammed is his prophet."?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Do most of today's muslims believe islam is the only religion?
Is allah, the God of Abraham, Issaac, and Jacob?

If they believe The People of the Book concept, yes to both, if not perhaps in the the way you mean. Was Moses a Muslim? Did he submit to God's will? Then yes, even though he predates Mohammed, it is irrelevant because he did what God wanted him to do with the understanding God allowed in his time and place. A continuation of the same religion.

Allah V God is language, not a different entity. Isn't God also Yahweh? And Dios? Same as I use Moses in English, not Musa, or Jesus and not Isa. My in-laws alsdo say "God" when speaking English, Allah when speaking Arabic.

 

[indiucky]

I always went with the Big Kahuna....


I thought you might get a kick out of this...I was filling Laura in on this thread, your Faith etc....And Laura goes...."That's so cool....So BBI is like our own Lawrence of Arabia..." And I said "In a fedora no less..."

 

[steveh_131]

Allah V God is language, not a different entity. Isn't God also Yahweh? And Dios? Same as I use Moses in English, not Musa, or Jesus and not Isa. My in-
laws alsdo say "God" when speaking English, Allah when speaking Arabic.

It is not simply a different name for the same being.

We both believe that there is one God. But yours is not the same as mine. His nature is different. His words to us and His actions in history are different. His promises and his singular methods of salvation are different. The God of the Bible says that there is only one path to salvation, His son Jesus. The entire Bible, old and new testaments, all point to this. It is one grand narrative of God's love and mercy towards mankind.

If you're worshiping a being who says different things, did different things, and offers different paths to salvation then he is not the God of the bible.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

If they believe The People of the Book concept, yes to both, if not perhaps in the the way you mean. Was Moses a Muslim? Did he submit to God's will? Then yes, even though he predates Mohammed, it is irrelevant because he did what God wanted him to do with the understanding God allowed in his time and place. A continuation of the same religion.

Allah V God is language, not a different entity. Isn't God also Yahweh? And Dios? Same as I use Moses in English, not Musa, or Jesus and not Isa. My in-laws alsdo say "God" when speaking English, Allah when speaking Arabic.

But what do muslims believe? Do they believe the god they worship is the same god as a baptist worships?

 

[Expat]

A Pakistani guy that I used to converse with took the position that muslims, jews and christians all worshipped the same god. That jews lost their way because of their continual disobedience to god. Christians lost their way because of the different translations into other languages ended up confusing the meaning. Since the Koran should only be read in the original Arabic, it is the only truly accurate account.

 

[rvb]

It is not simply a different name for the same being.

We both believe that there is one God. But yours is not the same as mine. His nature is different. His words to us and His actions in history are different. His promises and his singular methods of salvation are different. The God of the Bible says that there is only one path to salvation, His son Jesus. The entire Bible, old and new testaments, all point to this. It is one grand narrative of God's love and mercy towards mankind.

If you're worshiping a being who says different things, did different things, and offers different paths to salvation then he is not the God of the bible.

Yes, even Isaac and Ishmael are a prophesy of Jesus and the difference between the old and new covenant, not necessarily literal nations or peoples.

Galations 4 on Sarah and Hagar:
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. [SUP]23 [/SUP]His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise. These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. [SUP]....
28 [/SUP]Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.

God's promise to Abraham about his seed was reference to Christ.

-rvb

 

[BehindBlueI's]

But what do muslims believe? Do they believe the god they worship is the same god as a baptist worships?

Again, what school? If you've gotten nothing else out if this, can you get that "Muslim" encompasses a lot of ideologies and schools of thought, some if which conflict? Also, I'm not sure the average Muslim knows that Christians are not a bloc, especially beyond Catholic/Protestant.

I've answered you as best I can. The founder of the religion believed so. The Quran says Allah is the God Abraham submitted to. I think if you explained what a Baptist is, they would disagree on the details but that its the same god. Catholic, the trinity concept would likely reduce the number who see it as the same god. I'd point out there is a strong Catholic contingent in Jordan, though, so I could be wrong.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

A Pakistani guy that I used to converse with took the position that muslims, jews and christians all worshipped the same god. That jews lost their way because of their continual disobedience to god. Christians lost their way because of the different translations into other languages ended up confusing the meaning. Since the Koran should only be read in the original Arabic, it is the only truly accurate account.

That's a common basic belief. The Bible refines the message of the Torah, and any dispute between the two is resolved in favor if the newer text, the Bible. The Quran then further refines the religion, and any dispute between the Bible and Quran is resolved in favor of the newer Quran.

Basically that the human mind can never comprehend the infinite mind, but we continually refine and add to in a quest to get closer and closer as our capability to understand expands.

 

[Expat]

That's a common basic belief. The Bible refines the message of the Torah, and any dispute between the two is resolved in favor if the newer text, the Bible. The Quran then further refines the religion, and any dispute between the Bible and Quran is resolved in favor of the newer Quran.

Basically that the human mind can never comprehend the infinite mind, but we continually refine and add to in a quest to get closer and closer as our capability to understand expands.

So did you have to learn Arabic? The guy seemed to find any translation of the Koran as almost an abomination? Just curious as I know it seems like English translations are fairly prolific here. I assume if they are used here, then the local converts don't have that same belief.

He also was trying to explain to me about the tracks of Abraham showed that the people back then were actually giants compared to modern man. Is this a tenet of the faith or just an interesting observation he was making?

 

[jamil]

It is not simply a different name for the same being.

We both believe that there is one God. But yours is not the same as mine. His nature is different. His words to us and His actions in history are different. His promises and his singular methods of salvation are different. The God of the Bible says that there is only one path to salvation, His son Jesus. The entire Bible, old and new testaments, all point to this. It is one grand narrative of God's love and mercy towards mankind.

If you're worshiping a being who says different things, did different things, and offers different paths to salvation then he is not the God of the bible.

I have nothing in this conversation but to be an observer. I feel I can only weigh in on matters of logic. If what religions say their God says is a criterion for determining they aren't worshiping the same god, doesn't logical consistency require that the same principle be applied within Christian sects?

Muslims say God says different things than Christians say God says. Wouldn' it follow that some Christians then believe in different a different God? And it's not all just a matter of interpretation. The Quran is a book that Christians don't accept as cannon, which contains many claims about what God has said. There are many books in Christianity that not all Christians accept as Cannon that contain claims of what God has said. Most Christians don't accept the Book of Mormon. Several books accepted by Catholics aren't accepted by Protestants or Mormons. Given those differences, do Catholics, Mormons, and Protestants all worship different gods?