Dispelling the ‘Few Extremists’ Myth – the Muslim World Is Overcome with Hate

[historian]

Yes, if you get to pick and choose who's Muslim, you can make Islam in too anything you want it to be. Then somehow the cry is Muslims need to condemn the terrorists, but they aren't real Muslims, because I get to define who real Muslims are.

But I need to define them so that I can condemn them!

No true Muslim would be a moderate, therefore we must blast those that are moderates for not doing their job killing the infidel! BAD BBI, BAD!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

And these are EXACTLY the voices that NEED to rise in the Muslim world to accomplish what I was talking about. It's going to be a HUGE undertaking from the heretofore _relatively_ silent majority of Islam to publicly out, decry, disclaim, and shout down the folks that have bastardized their beliefs for political gain, revenge etc. And as others have mentioned, there isn't a "top-down" organization to draw the bright line, and boot out the extremists.

But it can be done. And the efforts like the above, are to be encouraged - and applauded.

The majority will always be relatively silent because they are doing things like going to work, raising a family, going to school, etc instead of feeling like they need to represent every Muslim everywhere in a venue that you will see.

Serious question, there is always an arson or vandalism going on at a mosque somewhere. Pig head left outside, graffitti, armed men walking around outside in masks and camo lately in Texas, etc. I've yet to see much outcry on INGO. Should I therefore assume that the majority of INGO thinks that's a good idea? Or that you're busy leading your life and don't have time to notify me everytime something done by someone who shares some of your characteristics but does not represent you does something bad?

As far as deradicalization programs, social media attempts at outreach, etc. they exist and have existed for a long time for anyone who cares to look. That goes back to my question of how do you reach people who don't read the media sources that cover that sort of thing and then complain they don't get that side of the story?

What about Lebanon? It was a majority Christian state until approximately the time the civil war launched this side of the establishment of modern Israel. There seems to be no philosophical problem when the shoe is on the other foot.

Lebanon is a sad story. I know, I know, adding to the reading list but "Pity the Nation" by Robert Fisk (a BBC reporter who was in country and covered all 3 decades of civil war). It's a tragic story, and it's also interesting how local politics and local warlords decided who to ally with. My wife's mother is Lebanese (and my wife lived there with her grandmother when she was really young before living in Jordan, so she claims Lebanon as her home country) and I realized I knew nothing about her country other than the barracks bombing so I read into it. Lebanon, however, was an internal conflict and not an outside invasion. Well, Israel invaded, but that wasn't the main war. 3 decades of war with militias divided up along multiple lines of religion & geography, economic class, etc. It was much more than just Muslim V Christian V Druze. (Druze are pretty interesting as well, but again I'm getting off into the weeds).

Context matters and you didn't include the rest of what he said which puts that sentence into context.

Which we're seeing a lot of in regard to the Quran as well. You can make a book say anything with careful editing and removal of context.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

What concerns me is when I see them lumped together, and folks advocating expelling them from America, rounding them up like the Japanese in WWII etc. Simply because they are Muslim. THAT is against everything I believe in.

It's been a looong time since I read up on that, but doesn't it always strike you that the Japanese were rounded up and interned en masse, but Germans and Italians had to have a specific reason to be interred and no mass internement programs were implemented for them? IIRC, German POWs were treated better in the US than US citizens of Japanese heritage.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

The majority will always be relatively silent because they are doing things like going to work, raising a family, going to school, etc instead of feeling like they need to represent every Muslim everywhere in a venue that you will see.

Serious question, there is always an arson or vandalism going on at a mosque somewhere. Pig head left outside, graffitti, armed men walking around outside in masks and camo lately in Texas, etc. I've yet to see much outcry on INGO. Should I therefore assume that the majority of INGO thinks that's a good idea? Or that you're busy leading your life and don't have time to notify me everytime something done by someone who shares some of your characteristics but does not represent you does something bad?

.

BBI - Aside of Texas, I have not heard of the acts of vandalism, etc. And folks down in Texas have responded to the silliness, as well. I support that.

I would submit that PART of the issue is the compartmentalization of the news. I don't watch much TV news, I catch any emergency stuff here on INGO, or maybe via Facebook or email or something. And what we each see is tailored to our searches. Hence you will see news of a mosque vandalization long before I will. If I ever do.

Secondly - you are right about the silent majority. There is a silent majority on INGO as well. We too are governed by which threads grab our attention. I suspect that may have something to do with a lack of outcry as well. Assuming that silence of the greater Muslim community == tacit support is probably an error, no? Would the same not apply to INGO? I'm sure that there are always SOME in every crowd that support that sort of crap.

I can only speak for myself. I don't support ANY of that sort of action. Anything like that is designed to shame, intimidate , or cow people into not being who they are. That is inherently WRONG. If I knew of such a situation down here in Cornfield, IN I would be glad to go to the mosque, or synagogue, or church or whatever had been vandalized and help repair the damage. I'm not aware of anything that has happened down this way - mainly due to our rural location and demographics... If you do hear of something like that happening down hear, please let me know and I'll be glad to back up my words with deeds.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

It's been a looong time since I read up on that, but doesn't it always strike you that the Japanese were rounded up and interned en masse, but Germans and Italians had to have a specific reason to be interred and no mass internement programs were implemented for them? IIRC, German POWs were treated better in the US than US citizens of Japanese heritage.

I was a missionary in Japan for a couple of years. Soft spot in my heart for those folks , in spite of many of the awful things that they did in WWII and leading up to it. But they looked different - and are easier to single out. Come down here to Salem Indiana - put two Germans and two Japanese in a crowd of 2,000 folks from Salem. Who is gonna be tougher to single out. It's wrong as hell - but it is, sadly, human nature.

 

[olhorseman]

I was a missionary in Japan for a couple of years. Soft spot in my heart for those folks , in spite of many of the awful things that they did in WWII and leading up to it. But they looked different - and are easier to single out. Come down here to Salem Indiana - put two Germans and two Japanese in a crowd of 2,000 folks from Salem. Who is gonna be tougher to single out. It's wrong as hell - but it is, sadly, human nature.

I don't agree that it is human nature. I believe it is learned human behavior. Look at the kids playing together in pre-school regardless of race, or nationality, they get along fine. Any disagreements are not based on race or nationality. It is only as we get older that we start to "learn" our behavior of fearing that which is different.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

I don't agree that it is human nature. I believe it is learned human behavior. Look at the kids playing together in pre-school regardless of race, or nationality, they get along fine. Any disagreements are not based on race or nationality. It is only as we get older that we start to "learn" our behavior of fearing that which is different.

Good point, sir. Perhaps I should rephrase it from "human nature" to "all too common condition". I do agree with your thinking - poor choice of words on my part.

 

[rw02kr43]

Think the fact that the Japanese attacked our homeland and Italy and Germany didn't would have anything to do with it?

 

[jamil]

I don't agree that it is human nature. I believe it is learned human behavior. Look at the kids playing together in pre-school regardless of race, or nationality, they get along fine. Any disagreements are not based on race or nationality. It is only as we get older that we start to "learn" our behavior of fearing that which is different.

That doesn't mean it's not human nature. Part of human nature is how we react to things differently as we mature and develop new understanding. How did the first person learn to distrust "different"? When diverse and separate cultures still develop the same tendencies there must be some element of nature along with the nurture.

 

[jamil]

Think the fact that the Japanese attacked our homeland and Italy and Germany didn't would have anything to do with it?

That too.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Think the fact that the Japanese attacked our homeland and Italy and Germany didn't would have anything to do with it?

That too.

That, and the fact we had a pretty large pro-nazi sentiment going here, in the states prior to the war.

 

[KJQ6945]

Were U.S. Prisoners treated better by the Japanese or the Europeans?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Think the fact that the Japanese attacked our homeland and Italy and Germany didn't would have anything to do with it?

Look at the context of the times, anti-Asian sentiment was very high well before Pearl Harbor. Take a look at immigration quotas and laws during the run up to WW2, as well as treaties with Asian countries to not allow immigration to the US.

It also would not explain the difference in how actual German POWs brought to the US were treated vs interred US citizens of Japanese descent.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Were U.S. Prisoners treated better by the Japanese or the Europeans?

Is that the criteria of how we treat our own citizens?

 

[olhorseman]

That doesn't mean it's not human nature. Part of human nature is how we react to things differently as we mature and develop new understanding. How did the first person learn to distrust "different"? When diverse and separate cultures still develop the same tendencies there must be some element of nature along with the nurture.

I'm defining human nature as
hu·man na·ture
noun
[COLOR=#878787 !important]

• the general psychological characteristics, feelings, and behavioral traits of humankind, regarded as shared by all humans.
  
  
  

[/COLOR]
By this definition, only those characteristics that are in common with all are defined as human nature. The post was regarding the "human nature" of distrusting that which looks different. I don't believe that is inherent in all humans, as I reference in the pre-school example. Distrust is learned behavior.

 

[KJQ6945]

Is that the criteria of how we treat our own citizens?

It was just a simple question.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It was just a simple question.

So was mine.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

My religion does not lead it's believers to chop off peoples heads or burn folks alive in cages. It does not push me to kill innocent people for no reason other than the fact that they don't believe like me.

Here are two simple solutions:

Solution #1: Since the bad guys "Wanna play terror games, Nuke 3-4 high value targets in the Middle East. Follow up with a message that we will nuke 1 target per week until the garbage stops. Period. Of course, American's have become far to spineless for such a solution and would freak out at the thought of collateral damage. Never mind the bad guys are incredibly barbaric and are slaughtering people by the millions including Christians. Terrorism is a Islamic Muslim based cancer that will only grow.

 

[rvb]

BBI thanks for sharing your side on the religious aspects.
in response, let me try to answer your questions to the best of my limited ability...

Well, with the understanding Christians come in many flavors as well, the tradition I was presented as a youth focused on correct beliefs. You could be a just person, but if you didn't believe Jesus was divine it was off to hell for you. What you *did* was not as important as what you *believed*.

it's all about grace. grace, by its very nature cannot be earned. salvation is given despite our sinful ways, so long as we believe. As believers we are expected to love one another as Christ did, help the poor, etc etc. That is the outward sign of our faith. To continue to intentionally live in sin or hate others (not acting as Christ commanded) is a sign that the faith may not be genuine. being "just" and what we *do* is the outcome, not the input. yes, there are many very good people who are not Christian, but God won't grant entry to his Kingdom if they don't believe in him.

On a side note, something I never did understand. Why did Jesus have to die? Could God not decide to forgive without the death of Jesus? I never really got that part.

Jesus fulfilled the OT law. Leviticus is one of the messiest things I've ever read.... a thousand reasons and ways to slaughter sacrifices so that a person could be cleansed of their sin. always with the best/purest grain/goat/bull possible. blood splattered everywhere, on the curtains, alters, etc. Christ was the ideal clean/pure sacrifice, slaughtered to cleanse us of our sin. The law was fulfilled through him, making way for a NEW covenant.

Did he HAVE to die? well, God could do however he wants. But he fulfilled the law given to Moses through the sacrifice of his only son to cleanse our sins.

I'll also forewarn you I'm not a literalist when it comes to holy texts. I don't believe in a literal flood covering the entire globe except for Noah and his boat, for example. Nor do I believe God is simply an invisible superman in the sky. I more agree with the "mystics" of early Christianity who said we can't say what God is because God is infinite and beyond our understanding and certainly beyond our language, we can only touch at his nature by saying what he is not.

Interesting that I believe those things BECAUSE I believe God is mystical, infinite, and beyond our understanding... I don't have to rationalize or explain it (and I'm an engineer!)

-rvb

 

[BehindBlueI's]

it's all about grace. grace, by its very nature cannot be earned. salvation is given despite our sinful ways, so long as we believe. As believers we are expected to love one another as Christ did, help the poor, etc etc. That is the outward sign of our faith. To continue to intentionally live in sin or hate others is a sign that the faith may not be genuine. being "just" and what we *do* is the outcome, not the input. yes, there are many very good people who are not Christian, but God won't grant entry to his Kingdom if they don't believe in him.

If God is infinite, though, does God not have more than one form (or any form)? Can you not believe in him without believing in a specific notion of him? As a hypothetical, let's say I believed in God as the source of kharma or as some collective that everything that exists is part of (which, I suppose, has to be true if God is infinite) instead of believing God is the Abrahamic God and that Jesus is his literal son, but I lead a good life, am just, and charitable, etc. etc., then what? Do I get a segregated heaven, or do I get nothing, or do I get hell? Especially given how much of religion is predicated on the time and culture we're born in, I just have a tough time with that.