Dear trainers: The cost of the NRA *Basic* Pistol course is too damn high!

[the1kidd03]

How many of you waste money on eating out, movies, etc? How many of you buy all the tactical high speed gear that just sits in the closet?

Really, eating out, movies, and other entertainment venues aren't comparable from a market standpoint. They entail completely different demographic factors mostly. For example, how often do you go to a movie alone or go to a restaurant alone? Most don't. Hence, it's not just the singular person such entertainment is serving. Therefore, it has other purposes than strictly personal gratification. Usually it involves keeping a loved one happy. Unlike professional training which only considers the person alone, while costing in most cases even more.

It's that same old thing of trying to justify things for a professional trainer rather than them adjust their business to improve it. Just because you're comparing things does not make them, their value, or reward universally equal. To put this in context.

You're married with 2 kids. You don't have a lot of money to spend. You have a $100 budget to spare for the time being. You can take a class for yourself or you can take the Mrs. and young ones to a movie. Which do you think will come with less hassle from the Mrs.? There is significantly more to addressing this training issue than people like to put to it and instead they just pass it off with excuses such as "priorities."

I agree with you when it comes to a bunch of excessive gear sitting in the closet that doesn't get used/tested. Of course, for more advanced courses you have to have some of that gear to attend. However, we're talking about basic courses where those aren't a factor really.

 

[eldirector]

Dude. I'm pretty sure you just laid out the textbook definition of "priorities".

I will agree, that if seats are going unfilled at a price, that lowering the price is one way to fill them.

 

[CB45]

Indy Gun Safety Signup

So is $145 more appropriate?

 

[Tyler-The-Piker]

I've been shooting for years. I go to the range fairly often and practice breathing techniques, grip, stance, grouping, etc. I can recite Cooper's 4 basic rules (and a few others). I can easily take apart any gun you put in my hands. I feel very confident that I'm not really considered a "beginner" per se...but...after reading this thread...I think I want to start taking some classes! I don't think that there are any offered near where I live...but I think it'll be worth the drive, effort, gas $, course $, time, etc. Hell, I may sign up tonight for one! Where's the closest one to Greenfield? and when's the next one? PM me!

 

[iChokePeople]

For most products and services, there's a level at which there's no longer any incentive to the provider -- there's no point in offering a class (or anything else) at a price that doesn't meet the provider's needs. Eventually, it will sort itself out. In a free market, given time, the invisible hand will always win.

 

[the1kidd03]

Dude. I'm pretty sure you just laid out the textbook definition of "priorities".

Perhaps, but it's simply so subjective. While people fail to consider all of the extrinsic and intrinsic rewards, opportunity costs, etc. and only focus on the actual cost, they seem to downplay that which can be considered a "priority." They're not "seeing the forest through the trees" so to speak.

I'm merely demonstrating where there are countless factors at play. It's infinitely more complex than, "their priorities aren't in order."

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Really, eating out, movies, and other entertainment venues aren't comparable from a market standpoint. They entail completely different demographic factors mostly. For example, how often do you go to a movie alone or go to a restaurant alone? Most don't. Hence, it's not just the singular person such entertainment is serving. Therefore, it has other purposes than strictly personal gratification. Usually it involves keeping a loved one happy. Unlike professional training which only considers the person alone, while costing in most cases even more.

It's that same old thing of trying to justify things for a professional trainer rather than them adjust their business to improve it. Just because you're comparing things does not make them, their value, or reward universally equal. To put this in context.


You're married with 2 kids. You don't have a lot of money to spend. You have a $100 budget to spare for the time being. You can take a class for yourself or you can take the Mrs. and young ones to a movie. Which do you think will come with less hassle from the Mrs.? There is significantly more to addressing this training issue than people like to put to it and instead they just pass it off with excuses such as "priorities."

I agree with you when it comes to a bunch of excessive gear sitting in the closet that doesn't get used/tested. Of course, for more advanced courses you have to have some of that gear to attend. However, we're talking about basic courses where those aren't a factor really.

So spend $50 on a meal to make your wife happy. Or take training that may save your life or the life of a loved one. It's like anything else. Keep putting it off, and all you'll ever do is make excuses.

 

[BravoMike]

That's my entire point however. Trainers in this area, at least most of them, don't adjust price based on supply/demand. Very few drop below $125 for a basic class all while there are more than a dozen options available. Many of the same ones admit to struggling in filling up those classes, yet don't charge less. That's demanding a price and not getting the supply and that is not how this principle works.

What you're essentially saying is that same rehashed point about priorities. That is placing all responsibility on potential students, and taking it entirely off the instructor/business owner. That's not business. It's easy to just pass it off as "oh THEY don't have their priorities straight." It's much more difficult to say, "What can I do better to convince them to reorganize their priorities?" Sorry, but the old tale of "build it and they will come" is not how a successful business works in today's market. If you want to make money in business, you have to advertise and sell your product; not belittle the buyer because you haven't convinced them yet. Convince them they need it or how it will benefit them. You can't simply "make it available and hope it sells." If someone is not getting the numbers they want in their classes, then an effective business leader researches why that is and addresses it rather than passes it off with excuses to deflect reasoning.

The level of demand determines your price. However, for most around here it seems their competition determines their price. "Oh, so and so charges this much, so then I should to." In the eyes of a buyer, especially a noob and one seeking a specifically NRA basic class, they will be swayed by price and convenience mostly. Their "goal" would be free and not leaving their home. Realistically, that's not feasible so they will shoot for as close to that as they can get. They will not pay attention to much else, at least not the majority of those who would be interested in NRA curriculum.

I have seen training at every price point here in the Indy area. I have searched for "cheap" training for friends... yet I do not have one single friend who has taken training, but they happen to have money for new guns, ammo, flashlights, you name it. I agree, and I'm sure others will agree that supply + demand = price. However, these people who are training are mostly not full time and have other jobs, so it must be worth their while to offer a class. Also, I have seen one thread on INGO where there was a trainer complaining of not being able to fill classes. Is that your source for trainers not being able to fill their classes or have you heard from the trainers themselves?

I personally feel that for many, a Basic Pistol Class is below them, they already know all that so why bother(no matter the price)? Then you have others who actually think, "you know what, this might not be a bad idea" and they end up paying the $100.

 

[iChokePeople]

Perhaps, but it's simply so subjective. While people fail to consider all of the extrinsic and intrinsic rewards, opportunity costs, etc. and only focus on the actual cost, they seem to downplay that which can be considered a "priority." They're not "seeing the forest through the trees" so to speak.

I'm merely demonstrating where there are countless factors at play. It's infinitely more complex than, "their priorities aren't in order."

I don't really see people saying "aren't in order"... They're just different. The problem comes when someone puts movies or dinner first, but then says the reason he doesn't train is because it's too expensive, even when the cost is comparable to the dinner and movie he chose last weekend.

 

[the1kidd03]

For most products and services, there's a level at which there's no longer any incentive to the provider -- there's no point in offering a class (or anything else) at a price that doesn't meet the provider's needs. Eventually, it will sort itself out. In a free market, given time, the invisible hand will always win.

$$ is the incentive. However, arbitrarily assigning a price to a product isn't ensuring you'll sell it. + $1 is one more than you had previously. It's when you're at 0 or - that there is no incentive. If a small business owner thinks it should be easy to achieve to a point where $1 more isn't worth the effort, then they aren't likely to succeed in the long run. Most businesses don't turn a profit in the first year or two. After that, if you're still not turning a profit, then it's not an issue with the consumer.

For example, how many of them understand the principle of equilibrium price? I doubt many, but lets examine something.

I arbitrarily decide to charge $100 per person. I sell 10 spots. Great. That's $1000 made (all other cost factors aside.) But, I would still like to make more than $1000 per class.

I drop the class to $50. My enrollment increases to 25 spots. The same class and all other factors equal, I just made more money by attracting more customers with a lower price. $1250

There is a point at which this ends. The idea is to find that price where this equals out to minimize your workload, while still making the most you possibly can. Arbitrarily assigning a price and never deviating from that isn't going to do much to this end. Not understanding your surrounding market, your competition, etc. isn't going to help either.

Customers aren't idiotic. They know they spent $150 to be there. They see 15 others and know they paid close to the same. It doesn't take a genius to add it up and realize, "hey, these 2 guys are making more in this one day than I do in a week." (or whatever the case may be). Yes, it sounds stupid but that does create a feeling of resentment in the buyer which further promotes their apprehensiveness towards the purchase especially when it's not something materialistic which they can show their friends and continue to see the rewards from day after day. The reward has to be worth the price.

Basics do not warrant the prices we often see for most average people. Some here, such as VERT, do an excellent job of addressing that. I send people looking for NRA specific curriculum to people like that for that reason. In many such people's eyes, NRA course is an NRA course. They don't know of the differences and largely don't care. They recognize the name and that's what they seek because it's familiar and therefore trustworthy.

 

[the1kidd03]

I don't really see people saying "aren't in order"... They're just different. The problem comes when someone puts movies or dinner first, but then says the reason he doesn't train is because it's too expensive, even when the cost is comparable to the dinner and movie he chose last weekend.

I've seen both. I guess it depends on the person's intended meaning, but regardless he obviously puts more emphasis on his family. On the surface, that is a priority thing but it doesn't do anything to help the business to pass it off and leave it at that, especially if it's some sort of condescending manner.

 

[the1kidd03]

So spend $50 on a meal to make your wife happy. Or take training that may save your life or the life of a loved one. It's like anything else. Keep putting it off, and all you'll ever do is make excuses.

That's exactly what I was attempting to convey in that post. Most people, especially those who would seek an NRA basic course don't look at it that way. Especially, when only about .5% of the country are affected (victims) of violent crime per year. That means, that the training industry already has a lot of odds working against them.

 

[eldirector]

What if you can't support 25 enrollments? What if you HAVE to cap at "some arbitrary number" in order to provide an acceptable level of quality training? What if it takes you 12 hours to prep and follow-up on an 8 hour class (handle enrollment, payment, communications, order materials, arrange for facilities, check equipment, set up, tear down, etc....)? Now your $1000 class is suddenly $50 per hour. Not terrible, until you pay for classroom and range rental, materials, ammo, insurance, etc... I'm guessing that instructor is now down around $25 an hour. Or, $12.50 if he only taught one class that week.

There is a point where the cost cannot go lower and still turn a profit, unless you sacrifice quality.

Since folks are complaining that the NRA Basics course "ain't all that", then maybe we have reached that lowest possible mark. The quality cannot go lower, and the price cannot go lower.

Maybe the NRA needs to drop Basics all together, and only market to folks that have the time, money, and drive to take a REAL class.

 

[the1kidd03]

I have seen training at every price point here in the Indy area. I have searched for "cheap" training for friends... yet I do not have one single friend who has taken training, but they happen to have money for new guns, ammo, flashlights, you name it. I agree, and I'm sure others will agree that supply + demand = price. However, these people who are training are mostly not full time and have other jobs, so it must be worth their while to offer a class. Also, I have seen one thread on INGO where there was a trainer complaining of not being able to fill classes. Is that your source for trainers not being able to fill their classes or have you heard from the trainers themselves?

I personally feel that for many, a Basic Pistol Class is below them, they already know all that so why bother(no matter the price)? Then you have others who actually think, "you know what, this might not be a bad idea" and they end up paying the $100.

Those are all factors as well. Anyone who has seen an action movie likely has developed some level of "type A" when it comes to firearms. Sometimes, they can be brought around by helping them to realize what they don't know. However, that requires them to be around someone in a time and place where that can be demonstrated. So, not very likely.

I couldn't cite where, but I've seen MULTIPLE threads, particularly on INGO where instructors talk about/complain/discuss the lack in class enrollment and financial gain they're seeing from offering classes. Far more than one. It's typically passed off under this same excuse of priorities. I'm simply saying, stop reverting to excuses and start investigating what you can to improve yourself or change the outcome. Instead, it seems easier to charge an arbitrary price and complain they aren't making money. It doesn't bother me any, because it creates a market for competition from guys who don't such as VERT. I like to see that. The more guys out there offering basics, the better IMO.

 

[bwframe]

Sounds like the1kidd03 and CB45 need to get together and start running basic gun handling classes for under $50.
Lets go gents, time to put your money where your mouth is. I'm waiting for a schedule. I have lots of folks to send you, some of which I'll sponsor (after I verify you can walk the walk.)

 

[the1kidd03]

What if you can't support 25 enrollments? What if you HAVE to cap at "some arbitrary number" in order to provide an acceptable level of quality training? What if it takes you 12 hours to prep and follow-up on an 8 hour class (handle enrollment, payment, communications, order materials, arrange for facilities, check equipment, set up, tear down, etc....)? Now your $1000 class is suddenly $50 per hour. Not terrible, until you pay for classroom and range rental, materials, ammo, insurance, etc... I'm guessing that instructor is now down around $25 an hour. Or, $12.50 if he only taught one class that week.

There is a point where the cost cannot go lower and still turn a profit, unless you sacrifice quality.

Since folks are complaining that the NRA Basics course "ain't all that", then maybe we have reached that lowest possible mark. The quality cannot go lower, and the price cannot go lower.

Maybe the NRA needs to drop Basics all together, and only market to folks that have the time, money, and drive to take a REAL class.

That's why I stated "all else equal" or "other factor aside." There is certainly more at play from the business end and more to consider in pricing. I was merely trying to demonstrate how an arbitrary price isn't effective and there are many things to consider.

I don't agree the NRA should drop it. I think they should continue their practice, even with the low requirements although the could bring that bar little higher I think. You can detail the curriculum a thousand different ways to suit your personal biases, but it is well developed for it's intended purpose. The more competent instructors you have in the market, the more people they'll be giving that basic information to. That flooding of the market, SHOULD drive the price down too, which would allow for even more to take the training.

 

[the1kidd03]

Sounds like the1kidd03 and CB45 need to get together and start running basic gun handling classes for under $50.
Lets go gents, time to put your money where your mouth is. I'm waiting for a schedule. I have lots of folks to send you, some of which I'll sponsor.

What makes you think I don't already? Merely because I don't advertise here, or because I don't try to make a profit from it? There are plenty of people here who do, so why should I bother when my interest isn't in making money from it?

 

[bwframe]

What makes you think I don't already? Merely because I don't advertise here, or because I don't try to make a profit from it?

Cool. Get us some class AARs posted up. Talk from your students. Lets hear about it.

 

[CB45]

Sounds like the1kidd03 and CB45 need to get together and start running basic gun handling classes for under $50.
Lets go gents, time to put your money where your mouth is. I'm waiting for a schedule. I have lots of folks to send you, some of which I'll sponsor (after I verify you can walk the walk.)

I'm currently too focused on my own training to work with other folks. When I'm all washed up and can't compete anymore, I may take on a project like that.

 

[bwframe]

I'm currently too focused on my own training to work with other folks. When I'm all washed up and can't compete anymore, I may take on a project like that.

Nice.
So that's what you are calling the instructors on here? "washed up" ?