Cleveland 12 yr old with toy gun shot in park

[88GT]

It looks like a video was released. I do not know the procedures of how these types of situations are handled when they respond to the scene, but they drove basically right up next to him. Would they not want to be farther back from someone who was reported to be waiving a gun around?

[video=youtube;7Z8qNUWekWE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z8qNUWekWE[/video]

Where in the video does the officer shoot the 12y/o?

Well good thing for you the necessity of taking a life to save your own or someone else's will never happen. So you can continue to armchair quarterback and pass judgement on others.

And like I said, you will never have to make that decision.

I didn't know you were psychic.

I'm pretty sure Jef Cooper said all guns. It is not a judgement call the the police should have to make, whether a toy gun is real or if the person is a thug (as you stated) or a clean cut american boy. Point a gun at the police and you risk being shot period.

Here are the safety rules for your reference:

RULE 1
ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.​

RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY

You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.​

RULE 3
KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER TIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

This we call the Golden Rule because its violation is responsible for about 80 percent of the firearms disasters we read about.​

RULE 4
BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond it.​

I disagree. Blindly following rules because they are rules is never a good idea. Taking the critical thought out of decision-making is not a good thing. There is no room for kids to play in your scenario.

 

[snowwalker]

Then people will start painting 'real guns' to look like the toy guns, oh, some already do.

 

[Darral27]

I have been a part of this all the way through and I'm not siding with anybody. The truth stands all by itself.

I think we might almost agree, but I'm afraid our "truths" may be different.

 

[88GT]

You're right, I don't know you and you don't know me or what I have done. But you made generalized statements about police officers that were completely uncalled for while evaluating this incident from the comfort of your couch. I would have not even responded to your posts had you left out the b.s. about trigger-happy cops.

So you felt you just had to one-up the pissing contest, huh?

The funny thing is that you and Denny are generally in lock-step on your positions, but somehow he has a way of saying the same thing without resorting to full jackass mode and insulting anybody who disagrees with him.

 

[Darral27]

Where in the video does the officer shoot the 12y/o?





I didn't know you were psychic.


I disagree. Blindly following rules because they are rules is never a good idea. Taking the critical thought out of decision-making is not a good thing. There is no room for kids to play in your scenario.

You are my favorite INGO'er now.

 

[Gluemanz28]

So everybody with a gun in the park should be treated as if they are intent on killing everybody in the park. Many OC'ers would disagree with you. It is nonsense you are adding. There was no reason to believe the situation is anything like what you are saying. There is no statement by anybody involved as of now saying anyone believed this was going to be a mass shooting.

Anybody in a park waving a gun around and pointing it at people should most definitely be considered a threat and treated as so. Several people on INGO have had an issue at a park when a MWAG call was sent to the police. I can assure you that none of them pulled their gun out.

 

[Trigger Time]

Well if he didn't obey the officers orders and went for a gun, good shoot. Sad but legal. I would have done the same.
and a 12 year old nowadays can easily look like a 20 year old. Kids are bigger than they used to be.

 

[Gluemanz28]

Where in the video does the officer shoot the 12y/o?





I didn't know you were psychic.


I disagree. Blindly following rules because they are rules is never a good idea. Taking the critical thought out of decision-making is not a good thing. There is no room for kids to play in your scenario.

I don't think teaching kids not to point guns real or not is blindly follow rules. I have a laser trainer that my Grandkids practice with. We follow the four rules with it, just like we do for all guns, real or fake.

 

[Darral27]

Anybody in a park waving a gun around and pointing it at people should most defiantly be considered a threat and treated as so. Several people on INGO have had an issue at a park when a MWAG call was sent to the police. I can assure you that none of them pulled their gun out.

They also were not 12 year old kids. Kids do not think like adults. That is fact. If you are seriously threatened by a kid waving a toy gun around you should probably just stay in your house. Whatever you do don't go to the walmart toy aisle. No little boy would make it out alive with you there.

 

[88GT]

Well if he didn't obey the officers orders and went for a gun, good shoot. Sad but legal. I would have done the same.
and a 12 year old nowadays can easily look like a 20 year old. Kids are bigger than they used to be.

I'd mostly agree. Unfortunately, there are a couple of things that happened beforehand that may have prevented it. I won't criticize the LEOs for the shoot itself, as it appears from the limited info I have seen that it looks justified. However, I am not convinced that the set of circumstances that were created were the result of good decision-making. There's a lot of evidence for the 12y/o holding a good portion of that responsibility. But some of it exists based on the choice of the LEOs to roll up hot and heavy and exit within feet of the kid. Under those circumstances, it greatly increases the likelihood that the kid's actions, rightly or wrongly, are going to be perceived as threatening with the logical result. It's bad policy to create a situation that almost immediately eliminates the possibility of non-lethal interaction.

Yes, none of this would have happened if the 12y/o hadn't been stupid with his choices in the very beginning. But the response of LE goes a long way toward dictating an outcome by closing off options before they even have a chance to be employed. I see great potential for that kind of error in the video. The manner of engagement sets the stage for the likelihood of outcome.

 

[Denny347]

No it is not. They were told that somebody playing on a swing was waving a "probably toy" gun around. How many 20 somethings do this? As Que stated earlier you would have a hard time convincing me they thought this twelve year old was 20 once they saw him.

You heard that from the tapes? That was told to the dispatcher but it was NOT relayed to the officers. Are we expected to know what was told to a dispatcher if the dispatcher does not let us know? It happens every day for us unfortunately.

 

[Darral27]

I don't think teaching kids not to point guns real or not is blindly follow rules. I have a laser trainer that my Grandkids practice with. We follow the four rules with it, just like we do for all guns, real or fake.

What do they do when you are not around? Say at Walmart in the toy gun aisle? Do you honestly believe a 4, 5, and 6 yo don't pick those toys up. If they do, do they deserve to be killed for it? I mean, maybe they are getting ready to go on a killing spree.

 

[88GT]

I don't think teaching kids not to point guns real or not is blindly follow rules. I have a laser trainer that my Grandkids practice with. We follow the four rules with it, just like we do for all guns, real or fake.

It is if you treat all items that send a projectile as a firearm. We have regular Nerf gun wars in our house. We couldn't have those rules if we treated Nerf guns as firearms.

 

[Darral27]

You heard that from the tapes?

That you posted, yes.

 

[Gluemanz28]

They also were not 12 year old kids. Kids do not think like adults. That is fact. If you are seriously threatened by a kid waving a toy gun around you should probably just stay in your house. Whatever you do don't go to the walmart toy aisle. No little boy would make it out alive with you there.

It is obvious that you have an emotional attachment to this subject and anybody that isn't agreeing with you deserves your jabs at them. I'm am truly sorry for your loss and I pray that you can somehow find peace and comfort during the hard times. I am completely exhausted in my attempts to get you to at least look at it from a different angle. Carry on with your post my friend.

 

[88GT]

It is obvious that you have an emotional attachment to this subject and anybody that isn't agreeing with you deserves your jabs at them. I'm am truly sorry for your loss and I pray that you can somehow find peace and comfort during the hard times. I am completely exhausted in my attempts to get you to at least look at it from a different angle. Carry on with your post my friend.

He simply took your position to the next logical step.

Not everything is a firearm. Treating them all as if they were is the definition of blindly following rules for the sake of following rules and removing critical thought from the equation.

 

[ChalupaCabras]

Absolutely its a parenting issue.

Yes it is - and the article on the first page tells us why:

Rice, the boy's mom, lives across the street from the rec center. She told WOIO she doesn't understand why her son was shot.

She doesn't understand. Generational stupidity. It's hard to blame the kid when his parent has passed down a mentality like that.

 

[Darral27]

It is obvious that you have an emotional attachment to this subject and anybody that isn't agreeing with you deserves your jabs at them. I'm am truly sorry for your loss and I pray that you can somehow find peace and comfort during the hard times. I am completely exhausted in my attempts to get you to at least look at it from a different angle. Carry on with your post my friend.

I believe you have quoted my original post. My angle is I WOULD NOT HAVE SHOT HIM. Nobody is going to change that. That is not passing judgment on anyone. Everything else has been responding to others.
I did not post about my loss to change or affect anyone's argument, just simply to say there is a side of this I do have a deep understanding of.

 

[Gluemanz28]

It is if you treat all items that send a projectile as a firearm. We have regular Nerf gun wars in our house. We couldn't have those rules if we treated Nerf guns as firearms.

Two of my Grandsons have personal space issues and have a little sister that would more than likely take a nerf dart to the face at point blank range so unfortunately we don't do that either.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Anybody in a park waving a gun around and pointing it at people should most definitely be considered a threat and treated as so. Several people on INGO have had an issue at a park when a MWAG call was sent to the police. I can assure you that none of them pulled their gun out.

I'm unfamilar with this instance, how did officers respond?
The more I think about it, the more I'm bothered by the response of these officers. This kid was pointing, what looked like, a gun at people in a park. Were there other calls concerning this instance? Were people running away in fear from this "crazed madman" with a gun? I've tried to think of every scenario where I would roll up, within feet, of a guy who I believed had a gun.... and I'm left with nothing. I wouldn't put myself in harm's way like that. The only way I see this going down the way it did, is if the officers had no idea where the kid was, until they were right on top of him (which is plausible, I guess). Not a bad shoot, per se, but certainly differing tactics may have been able to avoid this tragedy.