Cleveland 12 yr old with toy gun shot in park

[Bluejeeper]

 

[Que]

I know my comment is the opposite of the discussion, but we cannot dismiss the fact there are some real guns out there painted to look like toys and the bad guys have caught on. We now see pink, orange, purple, and lime green guns being sold straight from the manufacturer. The average Joe Blow would think they were toys. It would be impossible to make a correct decision to shoot or not when someone points a gun at you. Imagine how difficult it would be if a 12-year old deviennt pointed this at you?

 

[actaeon277]

Took this long for you to agree that I am entitled to my opinion. Wow. I am so happy Frank has granted my 1st amendment rights.

 

[T755]

I live in Elwood but I am not from Elwood. You act like Indy is some big, rough city. Lol. I have spent plenty of time in Indy as well as Nashville, TN. I'm not sure why you are both so offended that I say I would rather be shot myself than shoot a little kid. Is your job not to protect and serve? Maybe it has changed to kill kids with toy guns and I didn't see the update on the news. I am honestly not sure why either of you would be offended by my first post in this thread.
Denny, I am saying from looking at the picture shown the kid looked about 12. If the officers said different either the kid looked totally different or the officers need glasses, or they could be lying, I don't know.
Denny and Frank, did either of you play cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians as kids? I know I did, and back then toy guns looked pretty real, people just were not so stupid. I remember pretending like I was shooting at cars passing by along with my friends. Being a delivery driver in Indy and Nashville, TN. I have seen kids point toy guns at my deliver van pretending to shoot and you know what, I did not stop and kill any of those kids. I guess they are all very lucky they were not playing cops and robbers with either of you around or the parents would have had to bury them while you are sipping coffee and eating donuts.[/QUOTE

Sometimes you can't convince people that at 10am it's daylight out. Come to 42nd and post and see how rough it is. I'll bring a lawn chair. I have been shot at and I've been stabbed and not gonna happen again if I can help it. Incidently it was a 7yr old kid in the suburbs that stabbed me while he was speaking in tongues and saying I was the devil. He was probably right if you ask Denny. You will never have to live with a split second decision that will take a life. Anyone who may, or may not, work here can back up guns have been taken off kids younger than 12 and more than one I can recall sitting in a interview room being questioned for murder. In regards to this specific situation there are some things people need to keep in mind. MOre often than not the complainents on a run get it wrong. You cannot trust that the dispatch got all the facts or even the right facts. What you can trust is what you see with your own eyes when you get there and handle it the best you can. Its a s^&$ sandwich to be sure to roll up on this kid pulling what looks like a 1911 out of his shorts. But are you willing to bet your life on that gun isn't real. I know I'm not. We all prob played with cap guns growing up. BUt society has changed dramatically and the values and morals are not the same now. It was entirely reasonable to believe and act upon that kid was puling a weapon.

 

[actaeon277]

How about people start telling their kids not to point stuff at police. That if they're told to put their hands in the air, they do so.
Health & Safety class we were taught it's better to argue in court than the side of the road, and to try to not make someone nervous when they have a gun pointed at you.
Did they stop teaching that?

 

[Que]

How about people start telling their kids not to point stuff at police. That if they're told to put their hands in the air, they do so.
Health & Safety class we were taught it's better to argue in court than the side of the road, and to try to not make someone nervous when they have a gun pointed at you.
Did they stop teaching that?

Was the kid told to put his hands in the air?

 

[actaeon277]

Was the kid told to put his hands in the air?

I don't know. I was discussing things I was taught, that don't seem to be taught anymore.

Did he (allegedly) point something at an officer that could be or could be mistaken for a gun?
Did the officer "jump the gun"? I don't know.
But too many times I see/read about people doing stupid stuff. Reach into pocket for cell phone when officer instructs them to put hands up.
Lady ignores officer and talks on cell when pulled over on side of road.
Spitting on an officer and telling him to shoot.
Etc.

 

[Roland of Gilead]

I live in Elwood but I am not from Elwood. You act like Indy is some big, rough city. Lol. I have spent plenty of time in Indy as well as Nashville, TN. I'm not sure why you are both so offended that I say I would rather be shot myself than shoot a little kid. Is your job not to protect and serve? Maybe it has changed to kill kids with toy guns and I didn't see the update on the news. I am honestly not sure why either of you would be offended by my first post in this thread.
Denny, I am saying from looking at the picture shown the kid looked about 12. If the officers said different either the kid looked totally different or the officers need glasses, or they could be lying, I don't know.
Denny and Frank, did either of you play cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians as kids? I know I did, and back then toy guns looked pretty real, people just were not so stupid. I remember pretending like I was shooting at cars passing by along with my friends. Being a delivery driver in Indy and Nashville, TN. I have seen kids point toy guns at my deliver van pretending to shoot and you know what, I did not stop and kill any of those kids. I guess they are all very lucky they were not playing cops and robbers with either of you around or the parents would have had to bury them while you are sipping coffee and eating donuts.[/QUOTE

Sometimes you can't convince people that at 10am it's daylight out. Come to 42nd and post and see how rough it is. I'll bring a lawn chair. I have been shot at and I've been stabbed and not gonna happen again if I can help it. Incidently it was a 7yr old kid in the suburbs that stabbed me while he was speaking in tongues and saying I was the devil. He was probably right if you ask Denny. You will never have to live with a split second decision that will take a life. Anyone who may, or may not, work here can back up guns have been taken off kids younger than 12 and more than one I can recall sitting in a interview room being questioned for murder. In regards to this specific situation there are some things people need to keep in mind. MOre often than not the complainents on a run get it wrong. You cannot trust that the dispatch got all the facts or even the right facts. What you can trust is what you see with your own eyes when you get there and handle it the best you can. Its a s^&$ sandwich to be sure to roll up on this kid pulling what looks like a 1911 out of his shorts. But are you willing to bet your life on that gun isn't real. I know I'm not. We all prob played with cap guns growing up. BUt society has changed dramatically and the values and morals are not the same now. It was entirely reasonable to believe and act upon that kid was puling a weapon.

I have no desire to read a huge block of text like this.

I would spend more time finding the next line than reading. I want to know what you have to say, but I won't read that.

 

[Roland of Gilead]

The gun looked real.

 

[Thor]

My take on this with such a young kid, I would rather be shot and killed by a kid than have to live with shooting and killing a kid. I'm not talking about a 15 yo thug, but a 12yo playing in the park, c'mon. IMO this should not have happened.

When I was a kid we used to play all sorts of 'gun games'. Of course we were all in on it being a game and having fun not walking around in a park pulling a gun like object on random strangers; and we had some realistic looking toys. If, even as a kid, I walked up to someone and put them in fear of their life I could expect to be certainly punished if not shot...so I guess I never thought about doing that sort of silliness.

 

[Thor]

He plays outside with them, yes. Some of them are nerf dart guns that are made to point at people much like air soft guns are, so yes. His babysitters husband is a police officer and they play so once again yes.
This was a kid at a park. Not some gangsta on a street corner.

So...you let him point them at STRANGERS? If someone in a park pointed that 'fake' gun at my daughter they might indeed get shot with a real gun. That is not playing...

 

[Kutnupe14]

I live in Elwood but I am not from Elwood. You act like Indy is some big, rough city. Lol. I have spent plenty of time in Indy as well as Nashville, TN. I'm not sure why you are both so offended that I say I would rather be shot myself than shoot a little kid. Is your job not to protect and serve? Maybe it has changed to kill kids with toy guns and I didn't see the update on the news. I am honestly not sure why either of you would be offended by my first post in this thread.
Denny, I am saying from looking at the picture shown the kid looked about 12. If the officers said different either the kid looked totally different or the officers need glasses, or they could be lying, I don't know.
Denny and Frank, did either of you play cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians as kids? I know I did, and back then toy guns looked pretty real, people just were not so stupid. I remember pretending like I was shooting at cars passing by along with my friends. Being a delivery driver in Indy and Nashville, TN. I have seen kids point toy guns at my deliver van pretending to shoot and you know what, I did not stop and kill any of those kids. I guess they are all very lucky they were not playing cops and robbers with either of you around or the parents would have had to bury them while you are sipping coffee and eating donuts.

Indy is a safe, but can be just as dangerous as any other major city in the nation. You'd do well to remember that. As far as the kids age, I personally believe that the officers thought he was an adult.... not that honestly makes any difference. 12 year olds are often recuited into gangs, and can be just as dangerous as any person.

 

[Que]

Indy is a safe, but can be just as dangerous as any other major city in the nation. You'd do well to remember that. As far as the kids age, I personally believe that the officers thought he was an adult.... not that honestly makes any difference. 12 year olds are often recuited into gangs, and can be just as dangerous as any person.

I'd rather he just stick with talking about the gun appearing to be real. I'm not sure I've ever seen a 12-year old who looked like an adult. Anyway, I'm interested in reading the final outcome of this one. We shall see what happens.

 

[cobber]

So...you let him point them at STRANGERS? If someone in a park pointed that 'fake' gun at my daughter they might indeed get shot with a real gun. That is not playing...

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Thor again.

 

[Denny347]

I live in Elwood but I am not from Elwood. You act like Indy is some big, rough city. Lol. I have spent plenty of time in Indy as well as Nashville, TN. I'm not sure why you are both so offended that I say I would rather be shot myself than shoot a little kid. Is your job not to protect and serve? Maybe it has changed to kill kids with toy guns and I didn't see the update on the news. I am honestly not sure why either of you would be offended by my first post in this thread.
Denny, I am saying from looking at the picture shown the kid looked about 12. If the officers said different either the kid looked totally different or the officers need glasses, or they could be lying, I don't know.
Denny and Frank, did either of you play cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians as kids? I know I did, and back then toy guns looked pretty real, people just were not so stupid. I remember pretending like I was shooting at cars passing by along with my friends. Being a delivery driver in Indy and Nashville, TN. I have seen kids point toy guns at my deliver van pretending to shoot and you know what, I did not stop and kill any of those kids. I guess they are all very lucky they were not playing cops and robbers with either of you around or the parents would have had to bury them while you are sipping coffee and eating donuts.

I'm not offended. I'd rather take a bullet than shoot an innocent. I have not decided if this kid fit that bill. It certainly is tragic but you CANNOT judge the officer's actions by what we learned AFTER the incident. Did they know he was 12 at the time? Does not appear so. Would it have mattered? I do not know. Did the officers believe the gun to be a toy? It does not look like they did. Would that have mattered? Of course. Would an average officer acted the same way when encountering a 20yr old male pointing a gun a people? That is the million dollar question. If the average officer would have acted the same or similarly, then the force was reasonable. You keep equating us to saying it is alright to kill kids with toy guns. You are judging their actions based on information they did not have or receive at the time. That is WRONG. There are spots in Indy that are exactly that...ROUGH. East District and North District are home to the roughest areas in the State. I've worked out east for 13yrs, I grew up out here. I likely know more about what I am talking about that you do, it's my job to know. Much of which never makes the news. I never played cops/robbers or cowboy/Indians, might be a generational thing, I played Legos and GI Joe. Here is YOUR million dollar question...Would you shoot a guy pointing a gun at you or someone you knew? If you then fired on them only to find out that the person you THOUGHT was an adult was a kid and was armed with a very realistic toy gun that you thought was real, should you go to jail? The age is irrelevant, to a degree as I have worked enough homicides where kids killed kids, but the toy gun is central.

 

[wtfd661]

You are probably right, but if I did I know what it would be and it scares the hell out of me that you two police officers think your life is so much more important than that twelve year old boys. I have never had to kill anybody but I have lost a child and I do know that pain. These parents now have to live with that pain and for what? Playing cops and robbers with a toy gun and you think that can be justified? Does a 12yo even really have the mental capacity to understand what is going on when being approached by police officers with guns drawn? "Protect and serve" is your job and it was the job of the officer who killed this kid. He did not do his job.

I know I am a little late to this party but that is such BS I felt the need to respond. I have never met either of these officers (for quite a few years I have read what they have posted on INGO and have come to respect them) I can guarantee you that with the years they have on the Police Dept. they have more than once risked their lives to intervene in an incident to save the life of another including 12 year olds so for you to say they feel their lives are more important then a 12 year old is pure horse ****.

As far as the incident that is being discussed, the officers in that were responding to someone whom they believed to be an adult, who was reported to be "waving" a gun around which is threatening the life of everyone in the park that day. They were not responding to a 12 year old boy with a toy gun in the park. As far as their tactics go, hell I have no idea what was going on and just like everyone else in this thread. I could just as easily speculate that maybe with the way they seemed to rush in that they believed the incident was taking place some where further away from where they were at and as they rushed to that area all of a sudden it was a "crap" there he is and they slammed on the breaks. I can tell you that this has happened more times then I can count in the past 27 years that I have responded to emergency calls as a Police Officer, Firefighter and EMT, so "BAM" all of a sudden you have to react sooner then you thought you would. Did this happen in this case, hell I don't know I am just guessing like everyone else but I could very easily see this occurring.

And lastly I am very sorry to read that you have lost a child, I can't even begin to imagine the pain that has cause you and I will say a prayer for you.

 

[Darral27]

Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon — which was lacking the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle — from his waistband but had not pointed it at police. The boy did not make any verbal threats, but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands, Deputy Chief Tomba said.

A man who called 911 told dispatchers the boy was on a swing and pointing a pistol that was “probably fake” and scaring everyone.

“This is a 12-year-old boy. This is not a grown man.
“I’d think you would handle situations with children differently than you would with an adult. They don’t fully understand everything that is going on.”
I still hold the same view that I did last night. The police acted too quickly. I would ask the officers how many of these 12yo gangsta's are at the park playing on a swingset, which the 911 caller did state. As I said before, I don't know what the boy looked like on this day but I do know that the picture with the article looks like a young boy. It said in the article as I quoted that the boy had not yet pointed the "gun" at the police but was in the process of pulling it from his waistband. I would venture to guess the officers probably already had their guns drawn. IMO they acted too quickly.
Too the person that said they would shoot my child if he pointed a toy gun at his daughter in the park, What the hell is wrong with you? This is the problem with people today.

 

[Darral27]

I'm not offended. I'd rather take a bullet than shoot an innocent. I have not decided if this kid fit that bill. It certainly is tragic but you CANNOT judge the officer's actions by what we learned AFTER the incident. Did they know he was 12 at the time? Does not appear so. Would it have mattered? I do not know. Did the officers believe the gun to be a toy? It does not look like they did. Would that have mattered? Of course. Would an average officer acted the same way when encountering a 20yr old male pointing a gun a people? That is the million dollar question. If the average officer would have acted the same or similarly, then the force was reasonable. You keep equating us to saying it is alright to kill kids with toy guns. You are judging their actions based on information they did not have or receive at the time. That is WRONG. There are spots in Indy that are exactly that...ROUGH. East District and North District are home to the roughest areas in the State. I've worked out east for 13yrs, I grew up out here. I likely know more about what I am talking about that you do, it's my job to know. Much of which never makes the news. I never played cops/robbers or cowboy/Indians, might be a generational thing, I played Legos and GI Joe. Here is YOUR million dollar question...Would you shoot a guy pointing a gun at you or someone you knew? If you then fired on them only to find out that the person you THOUGHT was an adult was a kid and was armed with a very realistic toy gun that you thought was real, should you go to jail? The age is irrelevant, to a degree as I have worked enough homicides where kids killed kids, but the toy gun is central.

If I thought they were an adult and they were being threatening then yes I would, that is why I carry. That is not the case we are talking about here.
To the other question I don't think should you go to jail is relevant. If it was as I stated above then no, if it was some kid on a swing at a park that I shot for pointing a toy gun at my kid then yes I should. If I did the shooting in the kid playing at the park scenario I don't think I could live with myself so jail would never come into play.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

And if it had been a real gun and the kid had shot at the officer(s) you would be saying the officer shouldn't have hesitated. It must be nice to be able to study and evaluate a decision that has to be made in a split second out in the real world from the comfort of your couch.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I'd rather he just stick with talking about the gun appearing to be real. I'm not sure I've ever seen a 12-year old who looked like an adult. Anyway, I'm interested in reading the final outcome of this one. We shall see what happens.

I don't think the officers will be prosecuted over this, but I think the city will lose its butt for a wrongful death in a civil suit. Startled adults often act irrationally, a startled child much more so. It would be difficult to convince me that this child knew exactly what was unfolding.