Cleveland 12 yr old with toy gun shot in park

[BehindBlueI's]

When dead kids are looked at as unavoidable collateral damage, that sends a bit of a shiver down my spine.

Didn't seem to bother you enough to comment here: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...her-dead-child-thanks-unsecured-firearms.html Plenty of folks there think dead kids as collateral damage is just fine.

Let's not forget "your dead kids don't trump my rights" from Joe the Plumber. Did that bother you?

Why should cops be expected to risk taking a bullet when people here aren't willing to use a gun box and simply trust 5 year olds to be infallible?


Anyways...

Out of curiosity, how old does someone need to be to kill someone with a gun?

3 years old?
Police: 3-year-old accidentally shoots, kills father - wave3.com-Louisville News, Weather & Sports

Seems like I remember a 13 or 14 year old ambushing some troopers in southern Indiana not too long ago, as well, but Google is coming up blank.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Didn't seem to bother you enough to comment here: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...her-dead-child-thanks-unsecured-firearms.html Plenty of folks there think dead kids as collateral damage is just fine.

I might have if someone expressed the same "That's unfortunate, but it's just gonna happen" sentiment that I quoted.

 

[johnwhite]

Wholeheartedly disagree with any of the "If I was the LEO, I know what I would've done" type rhetoric. No, you don't. If one has never been in that sort of scenario, and even plenty of LEO's have not, that person has no idea what they'd do, period. Such rhetoric typically comes from watching too many 'cop movies' and episodes of "24".

An earlier poster stated emphatically, "This 12 yr old is no where a man sized human." How big, exactly, IS a "man sized human"? I'm certain almost everyone in this thread has seen an adult male at or under 5' 6" in stature, certainly within the size of some 12 year-old males, depending on his genetics. I would also remind readers that Audie Murphy, one of the most highly decorated American soldiers in history, was a 'mere' 5' 5" tall. Again, valueless rhetoric.

This situation is a tragedy, to be sure. But so far, the bad judgement appears to have been on the part of Tamir Rice, and likely his parents (or absence thereof). Further evidence coming to light may change that, but until that point it appears to be a tragic yet justifiable shooting.

agreed NO ONE knows what they will do in any given situation until they're faced with it. you can hope your training sticks and you do the right thing but until your adrenalin is buzzing in your head and you feel your heart beating in your chest like it wants out then you dont know squat

 

[chipbennett]

I am not judging anybody nor am I "force and tactics expert". The photo's of this child appear to be photo's of a child. I have children myself, one is a 12yo son. I do not believe for a second that when they saw this kid that they thought he was 20, that is just insane. All I said is I would rather be killed myself than to take the life of a young child. If you do not feel the same way Denny I am glad you are not an officer in my town because my 5yo likes toy guns.

Did you listen to the 911 call recordings, where one caller said he looked 20? Did you watch the video to determine if he looked 12, 6, or 20 years old?

And regardless of how old he is, or looks: at what point does not become, or cease being, responsible for the environment he creates by waving around a realistic, 1911-replica AirSoft pistol that is visually indistinguishable from a real 1911, and pointing it at passersby?

When the police officers issue three warnings to put up his hands, and he instead yanks up his sweatshirt to reveal a gun, and then reaches for it, if you're the responding officer: how do you react?

 

[chipbennett]

I'm not sure why you are both so offended that I say I would rather be shot myself than shoot a little kid.

If I were them, I wouldn't be offended per se. It's your choice to want take the risk of someone else shooting you rather than acting to defend yourself based on reasonable fear. But it is presumptuous, judgmental, and - yes - offensive to try to impose that decision on anyone else, LEO or otherwise.

Denny, I am saying from looking at the picture shown the kid looked about 12. If the officers said different either the kid looked totally different or the officers need glasses, or they could be lying, I don't know.

So, you admit to speaking from a position of ignorance (didn't see the video, didn't hear the 911 callers, and didn't hear the police radio transmissions), based on a photo used by the family? That sort of willful ignorance is the reason that Trayvon Martin has been immortalized in a red Hollister shirt.

Denny and Frank, did either of you play cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians as kids? I know I did, and back then toy guns looked pretty real, people just were not so stupid.

When you played cops and robbers, did you do it all alone, by yourself, pointing your gun at strangers walking down the sidewalk?

I remember pretending like I was shooting at cars passing by along with my friends. Being a delivery driver in Indy and Nashville, TN. I have seen kids point toy guns at my deliver van pretending to shoot and you know what, I did not stop and kill any of those kids. I guess they are all very lucky they were not playing cops and robbers with either of you around or the parents would have had to bury them while you are sipping coffee and eating donuts.

Well done, demolishing that Straw Man.

 

[chipbennett]

You are entitled to that opinion.

To paraphrase Ronald Reagan: he is entitled to that opinion, but he's not entitled to his own facts.

(And it's obvious that he has no intent or desire to find out the actual facts; they might disrupt his position of moral authority and condescension.)

 

[chipbennett]

Not the fault of the officer who had his gun drawn on a 12 yo.

Why are you so hung up on the age? 12 year olds join gangs. 12 year olds commit murders. Being 12 years old is not some magic age that renders someone unable to be a real or reasonably perceived threat.

I can picture it now, kid swinging on the swing set, waving his cool toy gun around making the pew-pew-pew sound with his mouth, hops off the swing and "holsters" his gun to head home...

Is it fun in La-La Land?

You do realize, don't you, that there's actual video? So all you need to do is watch it, and then you no longer have to rely on your cartoonish caricature that you've constructed based purely on imagination?

 

[chipbennett]

So everybody with a gun in the park should be treated as if they are intent on killing everybody in the park. Many OC'ers would disagree with you. It is nonsense you are adding. There was no reason to believe the situation is anything like what you are saying. There is no statement by anybody involved as of now saying anyone believed this was going to be a mass shooting.

You know, instead of erecting so many straw men, you could simply watch the video for yourself, and listen to the audio.

An OCer would not be holding the gun in hand, waving it around, and pointing it at people. Doing so would be an act of menacing - which, given the fact that the 1911 Air Soft pistol was visually indistinguishable from a real firearm, is exactly what Tamir Rice was doing. An OCer would know that such actions would lead to him being arrested, if not shot by someone reasonably and legally acting in self-defense.

 

[chipbennett]

They also were not 12 year old kids. Kids do not think like adults. That is fact.

Then they have no business handling a gun, AirSoft or otherwise, unsupervised.

If you are seriously threatened by a kid waving a toy gun around you should probably just stay in your house.

Spoken like a typical MDA type.

You keep saying "toy gun", as if that has any relevance here. It was an AirSoft gun, a replica of a 1911 pistol, that was visually indistinguishable from a real 1911 pistol. And you also keep saying "kid", as if that has any relevance here. Based on the 911 calls and the video, Tamir Rice looked reasonably fully grown.

Whatever you do don't go to the walmart toy aisle. No little boy would make it out alive with you there.

With no logical responses left, resort to ad hominem. (Refer to MDA reference, above.)

 

[chipbennett]

I'd mostly agree. Unfortunately, there are a couple of things that happened beforehand that may have prevented it. I won't criticize the LEOs for the shoot itself, as it appears from the limited info I have seen that it looks justified. However, I am not convinced that the set of circumstances that were created were the result of good decision-making. There's a lot of evidence for the 12y/o holding a good portion of that responsibility. But some of it exists based on the choice of the LEOs to roll up hot and heavy and exit within feet of the kid. Under those circumstances, it greatly increases the likelihood that the kid's actions, rightly or wrongly, are going to be perceived as threatening with the logical result. It's bad policy to create a situation that almost immediately eliminates the possibility of non-lethal interaction.

Yes, none of this would have happened if the 12y/o hadn't been stupid with his choices in the very beginning. But the response of LE goes a long way toward dictating an outcome by closing off options before they even have a chance to be employed. I see great potential for that kind of error in the video. The manner of engagement sets the stage for the likelihood of outcome.

I also have a problem with the way that the police rolled up on him in their car, so close and so fast. But that's a policy/training matter that may have contributed to the escalation. The culpability remains with Tamir Rice. He was the one menacing with the gun. He was the one who disregarded a lawful police order. He was the one who lifted his sweatshirt and reached for a gun in his waistband when told to put up his hands.

Even if the police tactics startled him, it was entirely unreasonable in response to reach for a gun in the waistband - and that act was reasonably interpreted as a threat to use that gun.

 

[Darral27]

I also have a problem with the way that the police rolled up on him in their car, so close and so fast. But that's a policy/training matter that may have contributed to the escalation. The culpability remains with Tamir Rice. He was the one menacing with the gun. He was the one who disregarded a lawful police order. He was the one who lifted his sweatshirt and reached for a gun in his waistband when told to put up his hands.

Even if the police tactics startled him, it was entirely unreasonable in response to reach for a gun in the waistband - and that act was reasonably interpreted as a threat to use that gun.

Wow, what a tirade. Too much to reply to all at once but I will try my best.

I did read the article. I did listen to the recordings. I did watch the video. I did not try to put my feelings or believes on anybody else, simply voiced my opinion that I would not have done it.

Playing pretend shooting games as a kid strangers probably were sometimes "involved" but it was back in the early 80's when everybody was not a whiny, scared *****.

i do believe your statements fit with the MDA type, "OMG somebody has a gun we should all freak out".

Per the video it does not show the kid playing on the swing as the initial caller stated he was. I would imagine it would be tough to sit on a swing with a gun in the front of your waistband. That is what my scenario is based on. I tried to make it obvious it was just an exaggerated guess of what was occurring when the child was on the swing but I guess I should have been even more specific since some do lack basic reading comprehension.

Please point out to me anything I stated as fact that is not true. You put up the Reagan quote as if I were making up facts. The only thing I originally posted is my opinion. I actually put IMO in the post. If you didn't know that means "in my opinion".

if I left out any responses to your rant you like me to reply to please let me know.

 

[Denny347]

 

[chipbennett]

i do believe your statements fit with the MDA type, "OMG somebody has a gun we should all freak out".

Nowhere in this thread have I said that, or anything similar to that. You're like a walking Straw Man.

Please point out to me anything I stated as fact that is not true. You put up the Reagan quote as if I were making up facts. The only thing I originally posted is my opinion. I actually put IMO in the post. If you didn't know that means "in my opinion".

That's the point: you're entitled to your opinions, but your opinions bear no resemblance to facts or to reality.

 

[Darral27]

Nowhere in this thread have I said that, or anything similar to that. You're like a walking Straw Man.



That's the point: you're entitled to your opinions, but your opinions bear no resemblance to facts or to reality.

I would not have done that was my opinion. How does "bear no resemblance to facts or reality"?
Do you even know what the words you are using mean? Walking straw man, really?
You justify police shooting a kid because he had a toy gun, kids do not think like adults. If you don't agree with me, fine, block me. I am entitled to my opinion whether you like it or not. Suck it up and put on your big boy panties.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I would not have done that was my opinion. How does "bear no resemblance to facts or reality"?
Do you even know what the words you are using mean? Walking straw man, really?
You justify police shooting a kid because he had a toy gun, kids do not think like adults. If you don't agree with me, fine, block me. I am entitled to my opinion whether you like it or not. Suck it up and put on your big boy panties.

Though, I hate the way this situation went down, I can justify the shooting like this: The officers didn't know it was a kid. The officers didn't know the gun was toy. The officer that actually shot the kid, was the passenger, and was placed in a situation where from his vantage point he recognized a person pulling a gun in what he believed was to engage him... he was forced to react.

 

[Denny347]

I would not have done that was my opinion. How does "bear no resemblance to facts or reality"?
Do you even know what the words you are using mean? Walking straw man, really?
You justify police shooting a kid because he had a toy gun, kids do not think like adults. If you don't agree with me, fine, block me. I am entitled to my opinion whether you like it or not. Suck it up and put on your big boy panties.

 

[Darral27]

Ok, so lets sum up my opinion.
I would not have shot him. That is not saying it was an improper shooting, that is not saying the officer should not have shot him, I am saying I would not have shot him.

12 year old kids do not have the same mental capacity as an adult. I am no Dr. but I am pretty sure that is proven fact.

Young boys play with toy guns. Seems obvious to me. My 5 year old loves toy guns. With shelves full of toy guns at stores I am assuming other kids do as well.

IMO this should have never happened. I would think we would all agree that a 12 year old in the park should not have been shot. Regardless of whether it was a "good" shoot or not.

I am entitled to my opinion whether you agree with or not. 1st amendment anyone? This is also a discussion forum. I have said in this thread before it would be boring if we all just agreed all the time.

I am honestly not sure why I have been jumped on ever since my first post in this thread.
Please Mr. Occifer tell me where my opinion is wrong. Everybody is piling on, putting words in my mouth, freaking out on me, calling me a card carrying MDA member. I think it is horrible a 12 year old boy was killed for playing with a toy gun. Did he make any mistakes according to what he should have done? absolutely. Does a boy that young have the capacity to understand what he should have done? I don't think so.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Ok, so lets sum up my opinion.
I would not have shot him. That is not saying it was an improper shooting, that is not saying the officer should not have shot him, I am saying I would not have shot him.

12 year old kids do not have the same mental capacity as an adult. I am no Dr. but I am pretty sure that is proven fact.

Young boys play with toy guns. Seems obvious to me. My 5 year old loves toy guns. With shelves full of toy guns at stores I am assuming other kids do as well.

IMO this should have never happened. I would think we would all agree that a 12 year old in the park should not have been shot. Regardless of whether it was a "good" shoot or not.

I am entitled to my opinion whether you agree with or not. 1st amendment anyone? This is also a discussion forum. I have said in this thread before it would be boring if we all just agreed all the time.

I am honestly not sure why I have been jumped on ever since my first post in this thread.
Please Mr. Occifer tell me where my opinion is wrong. Everybody is piling on, putting words in my mouth, freaking out on me, calling me a card carrying MDA member. I think it is horrible a 12 year old boy was killed for playing with a toy gun. Did he make any mistakes according to what he should have done? absolutely. Does a boy that young have the capacity to understand what he should have done? I don't think so.

Well, I'm not jumping on you, but I do think you have the benefit hindsight. I believe you when you say that you would not shoot a 12 year old, but I also believe that had you been in that situation you probably wouldn't have been able to. From what I know, the officers believed they were encountering an adult. When officers make contact with people (or at least the way I was taught), they always look at hands first. For every traffic stop I've ever been on, I can tell you where or what's in a person's hands, before I can their eye color. When I make contact with people, I always look first at the hands. If the officer that shot followed that policy, he would have recogized the gun well before ever looking the kid in the face. Should, a person spend that life or death split second to look a person in the face who it appears is drawing down on you? I wouldn't, I like myself way too much.

 

[Darral27]

Well, I'm not jumping on you, but I do think you have the benefit hindsight. I believe you when you say that you would not shoot a 12 year old, but I also believe that had you been in that situation you probably wouldn't have been able to. From what I know, the officers believed they were encountering an adult. When officers make contact with people (or at least the way I was taught), they always look at hands first. For every traffic stop I've ever been on, I can tell you where or what's in a person's hands, before I can their eye color. When I make contact with people, I always look first at the hands. If the officer that shot followed that policy, he would have recogized the gun well before ever looking the kid in the face. Should, a person spend that life or death split second to look a person in the face who it appears is drawing down on you? I wouldn't, I like myself way too much.

Kutnupe, when I say people jumping on me I am talking Denny, Frank, and this new guy who has 300 posts in 5 threads. As I said before, I am not a police officer nor will I ever be one. I have never claimed to be looking at the situation through the eyes of a police officer. I have said I am looking at this solely through the eyes of a parent. I have never claimed any different. Not that they are comparable but I remember thinking the same way after Sandy Hook. I could not imagine how Adam Lanza did not have climb over piles of dead adults before he ever got to the first kid. It is just not in me to understand this line of thinking.
I do know the officers did not know the age. I do know that they were told he was playing on a swing waving the "probably fake" gun around. IMO this should never have been called in to begin with. If I saw a small kid playing and waving a gun around in a park and it for some reason made me feel uncomfortable I would have asked him to stop. I am not like the people who "freak out" about this kind of thing, therefore I cannot understand it. I am a logical thinker and this thought process does not line up to me.
I do think watching the video and hearing the recording since my first post the officers did handle it wrong in putting the passenger in a bad position. I have seen on TV of course but actual footage plenty of times when a suspect had a gun and was not fired on. From what I could see the gun was never pointed at the officers. Shooting should always be a last resort and IMO it was not in this case. Therefore, again, IMO this was not handled well. It was a split second decision that they get paid to make and I do not. None of this is passing judgment on anybody, hindsight is 20/20 and I am sure the officer knowing what he knows now would make a different decision.
The purpose of this forum for me besides the gun aspect is to hear from people with views differing from mine. It seems to me some people on here would be better off talking to themselves in the mirror.

 

[Denny347]

Kutnupe, when I say people jumping on me I am talking Denny, Frank, and this new guy who has 300 posts in 5 threads. As I said before, I am not a police officer nor will I ever be one. I have never claimed to be looking at the situation through the eyes of a police officer. I have said I am looking at this solely through the eyes of a parent. I have never claimed any different. Not that they are comparable but I remember thinking the same way after Sandy Hook. I could not imagine how Adam Lanza did not have climb over piles of dead adults before he ever got to the first kid. It is just not in me to understand this line of thinking.
I do know the officers did not know the age. I do know that they were told he was playing on a swing waving the "probably fake" gun around. IMO this should never have been called in to begin with. If I saw a small kid playing and waving a gun around in a park and it for some reason made me feel uncomfortable I would have asked him to stop. I am not like the people who "freak out" about this kind of thing, therefore I cannot understand it. I am a logical thinker and this thought process does not line up to me.
I do think watching the video and hearing the recording since my first post the officers did handle it wrong in putting the passenger in a bad position. I have seen on TV of course but actual footage plenty of times when a suspect had a gun and was not fired on. From what I could see the gun was never pointed at the officers. Shooting should always be a last resort and IMO it was not in this case. Therefore, again, IMO this was not handled well. It was a split second decision that they get paid to make and I do not. None of this is passing judgment on anybody, hindsight is 20/20 and I am sure the officer knowing what he knows now would make a different decision.
The purpose of this forum for me besides the gun aspect is to hear from people with views differing from mine. It seems to me some people on here would be better off talking to themselves in the mirror.

WRONG!!!!