Cleveland 12 yr old with toy gun shot in park

[Darral27]

WRONG!!!!

A man who called 911 told dispatchers the boy was on a swing and pointing a pistol that was “probably fake” and scaring everyone.

That is a quote from the article in the OP.


The person who called 911 is wrong?

 

[Denny347]

A man who called 911 told dispatchers the boy was on a swing and pointing a pistol that was “probably fake” and scaring everyone.

That is a quote from the article in the OP.


The person who called 911 is wrong?

Telling 911 in NOT the same as telling officers. You can tell the civilian dispatchers anything you want. What they told the officers over the radio is what actually matters in cases like this. THe officers that you are critical of CANNOT be held accountable for information NOT given to them. I take exception to you still saying "they were told it was fake" and "he was playing on a swing". You are lumping dispatchers and the officers as one group sharing the same information. It is twisting a fact to meet a particular view.

 

[Darral27]

I am not twisting fact. As far as I am aware dispatchers are employed by the Police Dept. I will say again for the 10th time, I am not a police officer. I just listened to the recording again. It said in the beginning "somebody on a swing waving a gun around" then when the dispatcher was speaking with the responding officers she again said "male sitting on a swing". Am I listening to a different recording?

I am about sick of people including yourself piling on me for "my particular view". My view is this kid should not have been killed. How anybody can disagree with that is beyond me.

 

[OakRiver]

How anybody can disagree with that is beyond me.

Because, as you yourself said

I am entitled to my opinion whether you agree with or not. 1st amendment anyone?

 

[Denny347]

I am not twisting fact. As far as I am aware dispatchers are employed by the Police Dept. I will say again for the 10th time, I am not a police officer. I just listened to the recording again. It said in the beginning "somebody on a swing waving a gun around" then when the dispatcher was speaking with the responding officers she again said "male sitting on a swing". Am I listening to a different recording?

I am about sick of people including yourself piling on me for "my particular view". My view is this kid should not have been killed. How anybody can disagree with that is beyond me.

I'm not piling on. You have an error in deduction that you are using to base your opinion on. You are entitled to it but I have a problem when people make bad deductions and I can shed a little light to clarify it. It still may not change your opinion but what can I say. Yes, many dispatchers are employed by police departments. Mine are employed by ANOTHER department in the City. It would be like me giving a department secretary information then going around saying, "I told the officers this or that" when in fact I should be going around saying, "I told a secretary for the department this or that." I know you are not a police officer, that why I'm trying to correct a misconception you have. Telling a dispatcher something does not mean anything other than you told the dispatcher something. What the officers were told and what they knew is the only thing pertinent to this incident and there is NO indication that they knew any of the "disputed" information. I as a police officer cannot be held accountable for what a dispatcher was told but not relayed to me.

 

[Darral27]

Because, as you yourself said

Try quoting the entire sentence. "My view is the kid should not have been killed". My view is seeing it after video is out, info is available. My guess would be looking back the officer would not have made the decision he made if he knew the gun was a toy. Then again I could be wrong, I have been before.
Also I did not say nobody can disagree with that, I said if they do how they do is beyond me. Words have meaning.

 

[Darral27]

I'm not piling on. You have an error in deduction that you are using to base your opinion on. You are entitled to it but I have a problem when people make bad deductions and I can shed a little light to clarify it. It still may not change your opinion but what can I say. Yes, many dispatchers are employed by police departments. Mine are employed by ANOTHER department in the City. It would be like me giving a department secretary information then going around saying, "I told the officers this or that" when in fact I should be going around saying, "I told a secretary for the department this or that." I know you are not a police officer, that why I'm trying to correct a misconception you have. Telling a dispatcher something does not mean anything other than you told the dispatcher something. What the officers were told and what they knew is the only thing pertinent to this incident and there is NO indication that they knew any of the "disputed" information. I as a police officer cannot be held accountable for what a dispatcher was told but not relayed to me.

You seem to think I don't understand what you are saying, I do. I understand that what the dispatcher told the officers is not what the 911 caller told the dispatcher. I get it. Viewing the info, reading the article, listening to the recording, I stand by my opinion. After watching the video again I noticed the officers pulled up in the grass, not the parking lot. The snow must have made me miss it the first time. Why would they have done that? They had a description of the "suspect" including his hat, he was sitting right there at the table, I don't see there was a need in that. The caller nor the dispatcher said shots have been fired. Both said "male sitting on a swing waving a gun" 911 caller said probably toy, dispatcher did not. Either way no need for rolling in like Rambo. Again just my opinion.

 

[OakRiver]

Try quoting the entire sentence. "My view is the kid should not have been killed". My view is seeing it after video is out, info is available. My guess would be looking back the officer would not have made the decision he made if he knew the gun was a toy. Then again I could be wrong, I have been before.
Also I did not say nobody can disagree with that, I said if they do how they do is beyond me. Words have meaning.

That was the entire sentence. You want me to quote a different paragraph that has nothing to do with the actual point being made; that you shout I have a right to my opinion whether right or wrong, while lamenting you don't see how others can disagree with you.

I've been following your rant since the start and I have neither the time nor the inclination to point out where you're wrong; not that it'll do any good - you'll just scream my "opinion" to shut own the discussion (while complaining that no one is letting you discuss things). So I will bow out, keeping in mind the words of men much wiser than myself;
“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”
- Mark Twain


"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
- George Bernard Shaw

 

[Darral27]

That was the entire sentence. You want me to quote a different paragraph that has nothing to do with the actual point being made; that you shout I have a right to my opinion whether right or wrong, while lamenting you don't see how others can disagree with you.

I've been following your rant since the start and I have neither the time nor the inclination to point out where you're wrong; not that it'll do any good - you'll just scream my "opinion" to shut own the discussion (while complaining that no one is letting you discuss things). So I will bow out, keeping in mind the words of men much wiser than myself;
“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”
- Mark Twain


"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
- George Bernard Shaw

You are right, I said sentence, not line, I should have said line. I have not once said others are not entitled to their opinion, nor have I tried to shut any body else down. Just the opposite. Some on here feel that if you are not a police officer that you should not comment on issues such as these. I think that defeats the entire purpose. I am wondering how me having an opinion or perspective makes me a fool or a pig.
If these are your opinions of me fine, you don't like me, block me, simple enough. No need in your not so subtle form of name calling.

 

[chipbennett]

I would not have done that was my opinion. How does "bear no resemblance to facts or reality"?
Do you even know what the words you are using mean? Walking straw man, really?
You justify police shooting a kid because he had a toy gun,

Thanks for making my point for me. You state this as fact, when it is not fact.

You also mis-state what I have said. I have never said that police were justified in shooting a "kid" because he "had" a "toy gun". So, yes: Straw Man. I could restate my assertions yet again, but I don't think it would serve any purpose. What I've actually said is here. Whether you read it or not is your choice.

kids do not think like adults. If you don't agree with me, fine, block me. I am entitled to my opinion whether you like it or not. Suck it up and put on your big boy panties.

Did you get tired of Straw Men, and have to resort to ad hominem?

 

[Denny347]

 

[Darral27]

Thanks for making my point for me. You state this as fact, when it is not fact.

You also mis-state what I have said. I have never said that police were justified in shooting a "kid" because he "had" a "toy gun". So, yes: Straw Man. I could restate my assertions yet again, but I don't think it would serve any purpose. What I've actually said is here. Whether you read it or not is your choice.


Did you get tired of Straw Men, and have to resort to ad hominem?

I don't believe that is attacking your character unless it is true. If you really do wear "big boy panties" then I guess it could be a personal attack and I am sorry. I was assuming from your picture you did not, assuming has made an ass out of me here. My bad.

Also you are quoting me and going back forth for stating my opinion. I didn't count but I believe on 1 page you quoted me 6 times to disagree with my opinion. That is fine. Just realize I am saying I would not have done this (the shooting), I believe the police made mistakes. If you don't feel that way that is your opinion and it is fine. You believe the shooting was justified is what I gather from your opinion. I agree that legally it was a probably was a justified shooting. I also believe the police could have done things differently to prevent the shooting from happening in the first place. I feel that it is sad that a kid playing with a toy gun was shot by police, even though the police did not know it was a toy gun to me that does not change that it is sad.

With that being said I am done with this thread. I am sure I will keep reading it but have said what I have to say, been piled on by two police officers and a several "know it alls" and endured more than one personal attack all for having an opinion based on available information.
It's been fun guys.

 

[OakRiver]

It's almost a fire hazard

 

[actaeon277]

 

[Yup!]

IBTL

go ahead.... It's time...

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I'd mostly agree. Unfortunately, there are a couple of things that happened beforehand that may have prevented it. I won't criticize the LEOs for the shoot itself, as it appears from the limited info I have seen that it looks justified. However, I am not convinced that the set of circumstances that were created were the result of good decision-making. There's a lot of evidence for the 12y/o holding a good portion of that responsibility. But some of it exists based on the choice of the LEOs to roll up hot and heavy and exit within feet of the kid. Under those circumstances, it greatly increases the likelihood that the kid's actions, rightly or wrongly, are going to be perceived as threatening with the logical result. It's bad policy to create a situation that almost immediately eliminates the possibility of non-lethal interaction.

Yes, none of this would have happened if the 12y/o hadn't been stupid with his choices in the very beginning. But the response of LE goes a long way toward dictating an outcome by closing off options before they even have a chance to be employed. I see great potential for that kind of error in the video. The manner of engagement sets the stage for the likelihood of outcome.

This post details my own thoughts more effectively than my own posts on this thread and the other related thread.

Like I said on the other thread, If that kid had turned out to be a man with shooting skills and with murderous intent, then those officers put themselves at a real disadvantage (I guess I should say that the officer driving put them there) by rolling up so close.

 

[chipbennett]

Also you are quoting me and going back forth for stating my opinion. I didn't count but I believe on 1 page you quoted me 6 times to disagree with my opinion. That is fine. Just realize I am saying I would not have done this (the shooting), I believe the police made mistakes. If you don't feel that way that is your opinion and it is fine. You believe the shooting was justified is what I gather from your opinion. I agree that legally it was a probably was a justified shooting. I also believe the police could have done things differently to prevent the shooting from happening in the first place. I feel that it is sad that a kid playing with a toy gun was shot by police, even though the police did not know it was a toy gun to me that does not change that it is sad.

And fundamentally, we agree on at least the three points you made here:

1. The shooting was legally justified
2. The police tactics could have been better
3. It is sad that someone died as a result of this incident

 

[Denny347]

And fundamentally, we agree on at least the three points you made here:

1. The shooting was legally justified
2. The police tactics could have been better
3. It is sad that someone died as a result of this incident

Yup

 

[Yup!]

Yup

Yes?

Oh, yeah I agree... Thanks for asking.

 

[Southbendfamily]

Yes?

Oh, yeah I agree... Thanks for asking.

/thread over.