Civilians?

[actaeon277]

Getting into this late. Not gonna read the whole thread.

It is just a word. And people tend to have an us/them attitude no matter which side they're on or what words they use. Even when there aren't clear sides we make sides and whatever the nomenclature for us/them it will reflect the attitudes of each side.

Calling us non-LEO or non-sworn are more concrete terms. Police and firefighters and even the nice lady at the Floyd County records office are public servants. They serve civilians. Technically they are themselves civilians. But words often get bent to represent a less concrete meaning.

Although I care more about how I'm treated than if they call me a civillian, since they serve me, I'd prefer they call me master.

 

[jamil]

Exactly. Cops and firefighters and Floyd County records clerks should all look like that. And call me master.

 

[foszoe]

Exactly. Cops and firefighters and Floyd County records clerks should all look like that. And call me master.

However Major Nelson was not a civilian, so this theory falls apart

 

[actaeon277]

Exactly. Cops and firefighters and Floyd County records clerks should all look like that. And call me master.

Someone looking like that, dressed like that, I wouldn't need any wishes. I'd have used them all up.

 

[actaeon277]

However Major Nelson was not a civilian, so this theory falls apart

 

[Vigilant]

As long as LEO or Firefighters don't spit the word civilian, I have zero f**k's to give if they use the term!

 

[JettaKnight]

Jamil, you're right, it's just a word. However, 15 pages on INGO has taught us it's a charged word with a bit of confusion around its definition. Chip and I need to recognize that when Denny and others use it that there is no implication of superiority and likewise, they need to recognize that the listener my infer a notion of primacy when hearing it.

As much as I hate it, words change meaning. The goal of verbal communications is to have the listener understand what you are saying and your thoughts behind it. The wise will understand that 'civilian' may not mean the same thing to all people.

 

[jamil]

However Major Nelson was not a civilian, so this theory falls apart

She was his servant and not because his military status made him her master. Metaphorically, as intended, the theory is sound. However, there is a more difficult concrete obstacle to the theory. Barbara Edan hasn't looked like that in decades.

 

[jamil]

Jamil, you're right, it's just a word. However, 15 pages on INGO has taught us it's a charged word with a bit of confusion around its definition. Chip and I need to recognize that when Denny and others use it that there is no implication of superiority and likewise, they need to recognize that the listener my infer a notion of primacy when hearing it.

As much as I hate it, words change meaning. The goal of verbal communications is to have the listener understand what you are saying and your thoughts behind it. The wise will understand that 'civilian' may not mean the same thing to all people.

We overuse words in their metaphoric sense to the point where the words take on more of the metaphoric meaning. Gay has a completely different meaning now. Or how about, "you salty brah?" It's just how language evolves.

 

[17 squirrel]

We overuse words in their metaphoric sense to the point where the words take on more of the metaphoric meaning. Gay has a completely different meaning now. Or how about, "you salty brah?" It's just how language evolves.

Context... Context means much more.

 

[JettaKnight]

Context... Context means much more.

True, but there's not always enough context.

"We're going to have bi-monthly meetings." How many will we have in a year?
"Please peruse my term paper." Should you quickly give a once over, or dig into it?
"I went to Venice; it was awful." Was it filled with trash or invoking awe and wonder?
"Hey, tell those civilians to back up." ...

 

[jamil]

True, but there's not always enough context.

"We're going to have bi-monthly meetings." How many will we have in a year?
"Please peruse my term paper." Should you quickly give a once over, or dig into it?
"I went to Venice; it was awful." Was it filled with trash or invoking awe and wonder?
"Hey, tell those civilians to back up." ...

Those are all examples of people misusing a word to the extent that the colloquial meaning changes. Except maybe "awful". I think its meaning changed more from metaphorical use than misuse.

Bi-monthly is often confused with semimonthly. If you say we're going to meet bi-monthly I'm going to show up every other month. I'd show up twice per month if you said semimonthly.

"Peruse" is often confused with "glance over". But if you asked me to peruse your paper I would try to find all your mistakes and gleefully report them.

Awful in today's colloquial speak doesn't mean awesome. It means Venice sucked. And why wouldn't it? It's ****ing under water!

And to my point, civilians are the masters to whom the servants are referring. So the phrase should account for the due respect. It should be, "please beg our masters to kindly please themselves by finding better refuge over there." And then fall prostrate until the masters have moved.

 

[Birds Away]

Those are all examples of people misusing a word to the extent that the colloquial meaning changes.
And to my point, civilians are the masters to whom the servants are referring. So the phrase should account for the due respect. It should be, "please beg our masters to kindly please themselves by finding better refuge over there." And then fall prostrate until the masters have moved.

Not only words change over time. We civilians are the masters of nothing. We aren't even safe in our own homes. They can lob a flash bang into your living room for something someone down the street did. They can shoot you down in your own home for answering the door while carrying a gun. These things have happened and will continue to happen. They are considered "good shoots". Who are the masters again?

 

[jamil]

Not only words change over time. We civilians are the masters of nothing. We aren't even safe in our own homes. They can lob a flash bang into your living room for something someone down the street did. They can shoot you down in your own home for answering the door while carrying a gun. These things have happened and will continue to happen. They are considered "good shoots". Who are the masters again?

Hey. Speak for yourself.

Seriously, if they are "public servants", we ARE the masters. But I realize "public servant" is just a phrase. Servants generally don't have government backed authority.

But at least I can dream about Jeanie from back in the day.

 

[Birds Away]

Hey. Speak for yourself.

Seriously, if they are "public servants", we ARE the masters. But I realize "public servant" is just a phrase. Servants generally don't have government backed authority.

But at least I can dream about Jeanie from back in the day.

If a police officer gives you a command you must immediately obey. I don't think that makes you the master.

 

[Denny347]

If a police officer gives you a command you must immediately obey. I don't think that makes you the master.

We are neither the master nor you the servant.

 

[jamil]

If a police officer gives you a command you must immediately obey. I don't think that makes you the master.

I acknowledge that by saying "public servant" is a misuse of the phrase. They aren't servants. They are law enforcement. I'd like them to encounter people more as servants though. I don't mean subserviently, but just with an attitude that they're there to serve.

We are neither the master nor you the servant.

This is pretty much true in my own experience. I don't typically have encounters with police. But in the few I've had I've only had maybe one or two encounters where they acted like authoritative pricks.

 

[17 squirrel]

Agent of the Government. Is a much better term to use.
And Blue Flames works better than authoritative pricks. JMHO

 

[Denny347]

I acknowledge that by saying "public servant" is a misuse of the phrase. They aren't servants. They are law enforcement. I'd like them to encounter people more as servants though. I don't mean subserviently, but just with an attitude that they're there to serve.

Yeah but I really don't mind the term. In fact, it is how I think of our profession. We serve the public. Much like the phrase, "Serving my country" equates to military service on behalf of our country, I feel, "Public servant" equates to CIVILIAN service on behalf of our public. ALL LE are public servants but not all public servants are LE.

 

[actaeon277]

She was his servant and not because his military status made him her master. Metaphorically, as intended, the theory is sound. However, there is a more difficult concrete obstacle to the theory. Barbara Edan hasn't looked like that in decades.

Hush