Civilians?

[JettaKnight]

Names never have bothered me. Actions do. Call me whatever, just don't be a prick or have an authority complex. I won't break the law. So then We shouldn't have problemS

You're such a liberal.

 

[Denny347]

there are some non-police officers who view themselves as civilians and police officers as non-civilians.

There is no concern with one civilian calling another civilian, "civilian".

I understand this 100%. I think people are getting too focused on the term and NOT what you are describing. A jerk is going to act like a jerk no matter the jargon used.

 

[Denny347]

Just don't mess with my civilian flag.

 

[actaeon277]

Didn't we have this discussion before?

 

[KG1]

Didn't we have this discussion before?

I think so. Probably more than once. That would explain my poor attempt at jokes.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Who do I complain to about being mistreated by former military members because I never served?

 

[KG1]

Who do I complain to about being mistreated by former military members because I never served?

What happened? Did they call you chicken ****er?

 

[17 squirrel]

Who do I complain to about being mistreated by former military members because I never served?

Commander in Chief Obama ... He has the same problem.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Commander in Chief Obama ... He has the same problem.

Other way around

 

[Timjoebillybob]

It is simple: "civilian" means "one under civil law" - as distinguished from one under military law.

Our military personnel are non-civilian. Everyone else is civilian, including police officers, firefighters, first responders, and teachers (all of whom I have seen erroneously referred to as "non-civilian").

There is very real danger in ascribing an "other than civilian" designation to those who wield the power of the state, because it implies that such people are somehow above (or outside of) the civilian law. Law enforcement officers enforce civil law. They derive their power, authority, and duties from civil law. In carrying out those duties and exercising that power and authority, they remain subject to civil law.

Mind if I ask where you got that definition and what time frame it was in use? Per the 1828 Noah Webster's dictionary it is defined as this

CIVILIAN, n. [from civil.]

1. One who is skilled in the Roman law; a professor or doctor of civil law.2. In a more extended sense, one who is versed in law and government.3. A student of the civil law at the university.

A mid 1700s dictionary only has the 1st definition.

Now the Webster's definition of civil state is a bit closer to your definition. It is this.

10. Civil state, the whole body of the laity or citizens, not included under the military, maritime, and ecclesiastical states.

But it includes other than military also. Heck my pastor isn't a civilian per that time frames definition.

The UCMJ grants no authority. It is a separate justice system for military members.

Military members are are still bound by civil and criminal laws. If a service member damages his off post apartment, he could be sued civilly, then given a article 15 by his commander under the UCMJ.

I never claimed otherwise.

From my reading you did in the above quoted post.

There is very real danger in ascribing an "other than civilian" designation to those who wield the power of the state, because it implies that such people are somehow above (or outside of) the civilian law.

 

[chipbennett]

Mind if I ask where you got that definition and what time frame it was in use? Per the 1828 Noah Webster's dictionary it is defined as this

A mid 1700s dictionary only has the 1st definition.

Now the Webster's definition of civil state is a bit closer to your definition. It is this.



But it includes other than military also. Heck my pastor isn't a civilian per that time frames definition.

Try here, for example:

Online Etymology Dictionary

civilian (n.) late 14c., "judge or authority on civil law," from Old French civilien "of the civil law," created from Latin civilis "relating to a citizen, relating to public life, befitting a citizen; popular, affable, courteous" (see civil). Sense of "non-military person" is attested by 1819 (earlier in this sense was civilian, attested from c. 1600 as "non-soldier"). The adjective is from 1640s.

From my reading you did in the above quoted post.

My statement that you quoted referred to non-military, such as LEOs.

 

[foszoe]

Let's all be citizens and live happily ever after

 

[KG1]

Let's all be citizens and live happily ever after

No way.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Try here, for example:
Online Etymology Dictionary
My statement that you quoted referred to non-military, such as LEOs.

Your link doesn't back up your post of

It is simple: "civilian" means "one under civil law" - as distinguished from one under military law.

What it does do is show that the meaning of words do change over time, which is a very important thing to know.

If military is also subject to civil law which you agreed is true, why wouldn't what you consider civilian but that differentiate themselves from civilian also be constrained by it?

 

[17 squirrel]

Commander in Chief Obama ... He has the same problem.

Other way around

.melborp emas eht sah eH

 

[Kutnupe14]

So one under civil law? What do we call those under statutory or common law?

 

[Denny347]

So one under civil law? What do we call those under statutory or common law?

Commoners

 

[Birds Away]

I am now a civilian. I didn't used to be but now I am. I don't particularly care for it.

 

[Thor]

If I'm a citizen soldier am I still a civilian? Since the IN Const. says that we are all members of the militia are any of us civilians? Are retired soldiers really civilians? I know retired Marines would not admit to that...

 

[jamil]

It's just a word. Any word can be used that way. Saying non-LEO in that manner still stings.

Getting into this late. Not gonna read the whole thread.

It is just a word. And people tend to have an us/them attitude no matter which side they're on or what words they use. Even when there aren't clear sides we make sides and whatever the nomenclature for us/them it will reflect the attitudes of each side.

Calling us non-LEO or non-sworn are more concrete terms. Police and firefighters and even the nice lady at the Floyd County records office are public servants. They serve civilians. Technically they are themselves civilians. But words often get bent to represent a less concrete meaning.

Although I care more about how I'm treated than if they call me a civillian, since they serve me, I'd prefer they call me master.