Civilians?

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  • Libertarian01

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    When I was in the Corps we were military and everyone else was "civilians." To me, it simply meant I had more rules to follow - UCMJ. If I was stupid out there in civilianland I could get in trouble with the local civilian authorities THEN I could get reamed by my chain of command. Therefore, I never got into trouble (ie. I was never caught :shady:.) :)

    I have always understood civilian to simply mean "non military." Not even noncombatant. A civilian could be a combatant or a noncombatant. It was my understanding that the rules of war as applied under the Geneva Convention were different for interacting with civilians unless/until they were proven (somehow?) to be combatants. Enemy military would fall under different rules than enemy civilians who were noncombatants. It would have been left up to an officer to guide us if we were ever deployed.

    I don' think that the use by firefighters or LEOs of the word civilian is derogatory - today. I don't think it is meant to put people down, yet. I do, however, believe that by constantly using the term "civilian" to apply to a potentially skilled, heroic person of action who acted in a positive and productive manner during a high risk situation is a bit of an understatement. If there is a kitchen fire burning and a nonprofessional firefighter runs in and takes action to put it out does that make them a civilian instead of a hero? Does a person who confronts an armed bad guy acting in defense of others get relegated to the simple descriptive of "civilian" or could we find some other word?

    Obviously trained firefighters are professionals who have specialized training and tools to operate in unique situations, so the term "professional" definitely applies. Also, a LEO who responds to a conflict has specialized tools and training to deal with situations such as these, so the term "professional" applies here as well.

    But when I look specifically at LEOs I always start with Sir Robert Peel. His 7th rule, "...the police are the public and the public are the police; the police the are only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the intent of community welfare." Ergo, both LEOs and nonLEOs are civilians.

    I also believe that by constantly using the term "civilian" it is indirectly implying a "person who acted outside of the scope of their duties AND that should not be done." This is a broad brush, but I do think there is some subconscious or subtle hint that you, gentle reader, shouldn't step outside of your area of expertise. Let the professionals handle it and don't get involved. AGAIN, I am not saying that this is in all uses of the word today, but I do see some morphing of this word toward a slightly inferior status.

    Regards,

    Doug
     

    Blackhawk2001

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    Sorry guys, I read through 80 posts and couldn't take any more. Forgive me if anyone has said this: Police and Firefighters tend to call the rest of us (outside of obvious military personnel) "civilians" because they are considered "para-military" organizations, that is, they are hierarchical organizations which protect the public (like the military) and they have a rank structure similar to the military rank structure and they are subordinate to civilian authority. That's the sole reason for referring to the rest of us as "civilians."
     

    Sling10mm

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    What you laypersons find to argue about never ceases to amaze me.
    ISWYDT

    At the risk of getting something on my shoes, I'll step in.

    If it's not such a big deal, how about you military, police, EMT's and firemen just refer to the rest of us as "Dear Overlord?" For me personally, I would also accept "El Conquistador."
     

    DRob

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    For my entire career in LE, I always considered myself a civilian. Never considered it a big deal one way or the other, still don't now that I'm retired. Much ado about nothing!
     

    KJQ6945

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    There are several posts in here I want to rep, because they are very well thought out. There are several in here I want to tell the posters to just go **** themselves because they just want to argue. I'll just go back to the breakroom.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    There are several posts in here I want to rep, because they are very well thought out. There are several in here I want to tell the posters to just go **** themselves because they just want to argue. I'll just go back to the breakroom.

    You can send it to me via PM, lol.

    By the way, I had the chance to get behind a Kriss. I'm in LOVE. After I buy a particular item, that's next on my list. ;)
     

    Denny347

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    For my entire career in LE, I always considered myself a civilian. Never considered it a big deal one way or the other, still don't now that I'm retired. Much ado about nothing!
    I never really gave it much thought before the debate here. I've always thought of myself as a civil servant and fellow citizen. I use the term "civilian" while at work only to quickly make a distinction if needed. It's a term used by my fellow LEO's, fire fighters, medics, the news media, books, magazines, pop culture, even by my fellow citizens when striking up conversations with me. Here on INGO, I say it and might as well be calling them a chicken ****er.
     

    Cygnus

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    True but I used to get threatened in my job. I was taking care of facility's in the inner city and places that are not where most folks venture into. Hell I had issues working on the refrigeration at WalMarts after dark. Target of opportunity. I carried every where.
    My job in itself was seriously dangerous. Never called folks outside my trade civilians.




    I hear you. I do outreach mental health. Sometimes I am in the blue blood streets, sometimes I am in the inner city. Oddly I am out of place in both areas..... :)
     

    Denny347

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    Civilian | Definition of civilian by Merriam-Webster

    Civilian | Define Civilian at Dictionary.com

    Civilian - definition of civilian by The Free Dictionary

    civilian, n. and adj. : Oxford English Dictionary
    Oxford English has a very interesting definition:
    [h=3]c. gen. A person who is not a member of a specified profession or group.[/h]
    1946 J. Adams From Gags to Riches xiv. 221 Show gals are smarter and keener than most ‘civilians’.
    1975 Sci. Amer. Feb. 6/3 The listening public—civilians, we call them—its composers, critics and conductors are indeed fortunate that so many excellent instrumentalists spend so much time practicing and producing music.
    1986 New Yorker 17 Mar. 57/1 We spotted something up top of one of our highest towers..and we climbed up and found out it was a civilian.
    2003 Metro (London ed.) 29 Dec. 8/2 When you're a football player, you're a football player, not a civilian.

     

    KellyinAvon

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    This saddens me. I have many student veterans who refuse to apply for benefits or even use their GI Bill. Those who had a combat MOS will know acknowledge their status because they were never deployed. Others who were deployed reject their status because they were not in a firefight or did not have a combat MOS. The university's HR policy doesn't even recognize a veteran who has not served in combat, which I'm fighting to get changed. This policy is a federal recognition for the sake of counting the "veterans" being hired in the state, but my HR department can't find a way to provide the feds with their numbers AND recognize all of our veterans.

    Que, please pass along to your students that KellyinAvon, SMSgt USAF (retired) would like them to realize GI stands for Government Issue. They were GIs and they earned it.

    Also, tell your HR pukes to get their heads out of their asses.
     

    Bill of Rights

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    Where's the bacon?

    Geepers Thanks, I appreciate you going out of your way to make your point
    .

    You're welcome. Que told you how to find it, and you insisted it was my responsibility...came off kinda snaky in the process, so I answered in kind.

    People get along much better when they're civil to each other, I think. Would you agree?

    Blessings,
    Bill
     

    Bill of Rights

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    I never really gave it much thought before the debate here. I've always thought of myself as a civil servant and fellow citizen. I use the term "civilian" while at work only to quickly make a distinction if needed. It's a term used by my fellow LEO's, fire fighters, medics, the news media, books, magazines, pop culture, even by my fellow citizens when striking up conversations with me. Here on INGO, I say it and might as well be calling them a chicken ****er.

    I never pictured you as Rod Farva....
     

    foszoe

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    I never really gave it much thought before the debate here. I've always thought of myself as a civil servant and fellow citizen. I use the term "civilian" while at work only to quickly make a distinction if needed. It's a term used by my fellow LEO's, fire fighters, medics, the news media, books, magazines, pop culture, even by my fellow citizens when striking up conversations with me. Here on INGO, I say it and might as well be calling them a chicken ****er.

    I couldn't care less what you call me, if the shoe fits wear it. After all I am a civilian AND a chicken eater.
     

    foszoe

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    "eater" doesn'r match the number of asterisks, but:

    New Charges for Man Convicted Of Bestiality | NBC Chicago

    How about cooker? And fix that r in doesn'r!

    I gotta pay more attention. .....

    Of course even if it was something else, he would have to do more than that to ruffle my tail feathers.

    Oh and in regards to the story, in thEze days he can claim he was tenderizing and juicing the chicken with a new slaughter technique and get the charges dropped if he gets a good lawyer! Hint hint.
     

    Denny347

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    Names never have bothered me. Actions do. Call me whatever, just don't be a prick or have an authority complex. I won't break the law. So then We shouldn't have problemS
    This. While there are some words that have such a negative history that to use them is a violation of societal norms, "civilian" isn't one of them. Be less concerned by WHAT say and be more focused on HOW I say it. I agree with this 100%. The art of getting someone to do what they do not want to do by your words and manner of speaking. I have used the term "civilian" but not ONCE has it been used in a derogatory, negative, or condescending context. But to some here, no matter how nice I am, by uttering this word, I'm taking a giant dump on them.
     

    chipbennett

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    This. While there are some words that have such a negative history that to use them is a violation of societal norms, "civilian" isn't one of them. Be less concerned by WHAT say and be more focused on HOW I say it. I agree with this 100%. The art of getting someone to do what they do not want to do by your words and manner of speaking. I have used the term "civilian" but not ONCE has it been used in a derogatory, negative, or condescending context. But to some here, no matter how nice I am, by uttering this word, I'm taking a giant dump on them.

    Again: the issue isn't with calling civilians, "civilians." Rather, the issue is with considering some civilians as something as other than civilians. A police officer referring to a non-police officer as a "civilian" is no concern whatsoever, as long as the police officer considers himself also to be a civilian. And vice versa; there are some non-police officers who view themselves as civilians and police officers as non-civilians.

    There is no concern with one civilian calling another civilian, "civilian".
     
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