CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[JettaKnight]

Flat earth and jet fuel can't melt Jade Helm's chem-trails is also obvious to many.

Well, he is the Catholic Pope.

 

[Ziggidy]

Couple points brought up recently:
Clerical celibacy was itself a reform that made sense for several reasons. Sinful indiscretions of the flesh plagued the church before celibacy was adopted (although the standard was much different back then). As set out upthread, the actual incidence of child molest, in particular, appears to be in the same proportion as other faiths and the population at large.

Just as we are more likely to learn now about teacher-student indiscretion, and molestation, part of our society's evolution is that these things are now more widely reported. That's just a fact. It provides more accountability, which is a good thing.

Along with that accountability is criminal prosecution. The Pennsylvania report was (as I understand it) specifically in the context of a criminal investigation. For what its worth, there are statute of limitations issues (which probably deserves its own thread) for the crimes that occurred in the "distant" past. I believe those crimes not barred by the statute of limitations are being pursued. "New" crimes have a far greater chance of being reported, because of the transparency and "mandated reporter" laws. In Indiana, most people who work with children in any way are required to report suspected abuse.

If I understand you correctly, the thought that the incidence of sex crimes within the church are on same level as the rest of the world, and that makes it better in the sense that it is not more than the world; makes it more acceptable?

If I understand that correctly (and I may not), even the suggestion that the incidence of anything illegal, immoral, unethical is on equal level as the world is extremely alarming. The church is supposed to be "above" the world. I would agree that it is still "man" within the church, but one would certainly hope that the percentages of illegal occurrences would be significantly lower than that in the world....significantly lower.

One cannot expect spiritual leaders to be an example to others if they themselves are immoral, unethical and practice living in sin.

Maybe I am not understanding your post?

 

[T.Lex]

If I understand you correctly, the thought that the incidence of sex crimes within the church are on same level as the rest of the world, and that makes it better in the sense that it is not more than the world; makes it more acceptable?

Your allegation appears to be that the Catholic church has been "infiltrated" with the "gay lifestyle" and that it has been "covered up." Those quotes are your words.

My counterpoint is that - based on available numbers - the Catholic church clergy involved in misconduct is statistically level with society at large. That is not a defense; that is an observation. An observation that includes all other denominations.

Your casting this as an argument that it is "acceptable" is a complete mis-reading, that appears to be an intentional twisting.

If my position, or that of the Catholic church, was that the misconduct is "acceptable" then there would not be the call for reform. If it was "acceptable" there would be no reason for reform.

If I understand that correctly (and I may not), even the suggestion that the incidence of anything illegal, immoral, unethical is on equal level as the world is extremely alarming. The church is supposed to be "above" the world. I would agree that it is still "man" within the church, but one would certainly hope that the percentages of illegal occurrences would be significantly lower than that in the world....significantly lower.

One would certainly hope.

But when that hope is not made real, it is important to continue to act in accordance with God's will on the matters.

One cannot expect spiritual leaders to be an example to others if they themselves are immoral, unethical and practice living in sin.

There's that phrase "living in sin" again. I think that it has developed a bit of a malleable definition.

We all sin. The clergy are not immune to that, celibate or not.

Maybe I am not understanding your post?

Frequently.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Similar to instances of domestic abuse in the NFL, I believe someone else said before.

Just see it more when it's up-front and in the spotlight.

Not sure about the Catholic Church statistic though... it does seem high, but I also have no idea how many priests there are.

 

[T.Lex]

The last stat I saw was ~400k Catholic priests in the world. That number has been in decline for a generation or so, which means the priest to parishioner ratio has gone up alot. Like, doubled I think.

ETA:
Just checked - about 400k in the world, about 40k in the US.

 

[Ziggidy]

Your allegation appears to be that the Catholic church has been "infiltrated" with the "gay lifestyle" and that it has been "covered up." Those quotes are your words.

My counterpoint is that - based on available numbers - the Catholic church clergy involved in misconduct is statistically level with society at large. That is not a defense; that is an observation. An observation that includes all other denominations.

Your casting this as an argument that it is "acceptable" is a complete mis-reading, that appears to be an intentional twisting.

If my position, or that of the Catholic church, was that the misconduct is "acceptable" then there would not be the call for reform. If it was "acceptable" there would be no reason for reform.


One would certainly hope.

But when that hope is not made real, it is important to continue to act in accordance with God's will on the matters.



There's that phrase "living in sin" again. I think that it has developed a bit of a malleable definition.

We all sin. The clergy are not immune to that, celibate or not.


Frequently.

With all due respect, you spin my posts quite often and this is no exception.

I believe I am quite clear in my question / post. Please re-read it again and take your time responding.

 

[T.Lex]

With all due respect, you spin my posts quite often and this is no exception.

I believe I am quite clear in my question / post. Please re-read it again and take your time responding.

Fair enough.

I think I will take my time. Feel free to wait.

 

[T.Lex]

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/3-weeks-ago-revealed-abused-123015213.html

Interesting and valuable perspective.

I think it is also illustrative of the sea-change in how these issues are received within the church. I'm a fair bit older than this guy, but can confirm his description of "how it used to be."

 

[T.Lex]

Diocese of Ft. Wayne/South Bend has made public a list of its priests/deacons with credible allegations of inappropriate conduct.

I'd paste the link, but the site crashes the browser I'm on (had to use a different machine to get to it).

Didn't recognize any names, but this is another step in the right direction.

Coincidentally (or not), the bishop's name was raised in the Pennsylvania report, but "cleared" of wrongdoing.

https://www.southbendtribune.com/ne...cle_abddc668-a9a2-5f51-bbdb-5dbab78d74ab.html

Upon learning of abuse, he appears to have contacted not just church officials, but also law enforcement.

 

[Dead Duck]

Remember when rainbows were just a bunch of colors after a storm?

Rainbow-flag burning priest removed from Chicago parish | Fox News

 

[JettaKnight]

Remember when rainbows were just a bunch of colors after a storm?

Rainbow-flag burning priest removed from Chicago parish | Fox News

Nice. Burning that abomination, I mean.

Occasionally, I run our stage lights in a rainbow pattern - you know, we're taking it back. It was a Judaeo-Christian symbol for thousands of years before being co-opted.

 

[Ziggidy]

Remember when rainbows were just a bunch of colors after a storm?

Rainbow-flag burning priest removed from Chicago parish | Fox News

Sad that many (not all) catholic leaders continue to support sin, one way or another. You certainly do not want to offend satan! Maybe Cupich's feet were getting too hot.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

 

[foszoe]

Volunteers? Should be the senior priest or father or mother or oldest son etc....Volunteers? When will this new-fangled reformation stuff finally all go away?

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Pope Francis has defrocked Chilean priest at center of global sex abuse scandal rocking his papacy, invoking his "supreme" authority to stiffen a sentence originally handed down by a Vatican court in 2011

https://apnews.com/39dadbce8d924723...AP&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter

 

[JettaKnight]

Fitting...

Supposed Christian Doesn't Even Own A Gun

 

[NKBJ]

The catholic church was under attack through infiltration long before the soviet incursions pre-WW11.
Not, that is, that the soviet action was a new effort. Actually it was just a continuation.

 

[Dead Duck]

The catholic church was under attack through infiltration long before the soviet incursions pre-WW11.
Not, that is, that the soviet action was a new effort. Actually it was just a continuation.

So the red commies are behind the alter boys? Or are they behind the priests behind the alter boys?
Who's behind the red commies? The pope?

Are there any nuns in this scenario because that would be very confusing...

 

[BugI02]

Pope Francis has defrocked Chilean priest at center of global sex abuse scandal rocking his papacy, invoking his "supreme" authority to stiffen a sentence originally handed down by a Vatican court in 2011

https://apnews.com/39dadbce8d924723...AP&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter

Wait, I thought McCarrick and Luigi Capozzi were the poster boys for this scandal. I can't tell them apart without a program, how many are there?

 

[BugI02]

Volunteers? Should be the senior priest or father or mother or oldest son etc....Volunteers? When will this new-fangled reformation stuff finally all go away?

No, no! You're supposed to really turn the screws on your daughter's boyfriend (when he comes to dinner) and offer him the privilege