CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[T.Lex]

Ok. That's funny. They are really clever.

The Bee should start a half hour faux news show. Kinda like TMZ. It would be REALLY funny. Maybe mix in some sketch comedy, too.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Plus "Get thee behind me Satan" sounds cooler than, "get back..get back...get back to where you once belong devil..."

You're thinking of Jojo.

What's up with the KJV only, everyone else is damned to hell folks?

I can't begin to fathom a God who would damn folks for not selecting the exact right sliver of belief out of a near infinite amount of variations. I'm, of course, not the person to comment on the various Christian flavors of what you get damned for. Mohammed did not originally allow Christians and Jews to convert because they were what they were supposed to be. The Qu'ran says they go to Heaven (Paradise) as well. Some later interpretations, particularly the Wahabi, have tried to read it as "pre-Mohammed", as in it was ok to be Christian or Jewish before Mohammed showed you Islam. That's not what it says. It makes no sense to read it like that in context. It certainly makes no sense in how Mohammed himself behaved toward other "People of the book". It is, IMO, a secular push for "us vs them" using religion to further that.

Being "Muslim" isn't just being *a* Muslim. It's surrendering to the will of God. You can be Muslim without being Muslim. Indiucky may disagree with my characterization, but I consider him Muslim as a Christian. He's who he's supposed to be and does his best (as far as I can tell) to live his faith. If, for some reason, he wished to "convert" I'd be happy to witness while he made his proclamation of faith but I don't think it's necessary or would make him a better person unless he was following a calling to do so. Same mountain, different path.

 

[Ziggidy]

Same mountain, different path.

The god of islam is not the same christian God.....as a matter of fact, the islam god is not god. Knowing this means there are not many paths on the same mountain. There is one path to our One God.

 

[PaulF]

The god of islam is not the same christian God.....as a matter of fact, the islam god is not god. Knowing this means there are not many paths on the same mountain. There is one path to our One God.

The God of Islam is the God of Abraham...the same God worshipped by Jews and Christians. That's a fact.

It is also common sense...there are only three options:

1)There are no gods.
2)There is one God.
3)There are multiple gods.

If option 2 is correct, then any religion claiming to worship the one true God is technically true...regardless what their religious practices entail, or any "revealed truth" they may claim.

 

[Nevermore]

The God of Islam is the God of Abraham...the same God worshipped by Jews and Christians. That's a fact.

It is also common sense...there are only three options:

1)There are no gods.
2)There is one God.
3)There are multiple gods.

If option 2 is correct, then any religion claiming to worship the one true God is technically true...regardless what their religious practices entail, or any "revealed truth" they may claim.

Except that the God of Jews and Christians is not the God of Abraham only, but rather the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob which presents an obvious problem there. That same God (known more peculiarly through many names, such as Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, etc) is peculiar in His desires, mannerisms, modes of action, etc. Furthermore, He has made it peculiarly clear how He is to be worshiped and accepts no other as legitimate other than what He desires. Example most are familiar with: the golden calf? Technically those Israelites there were worshiping the God who had delivered them out of Egypt and might have even ascribed the true name(s) of God to that little idol. God's response was to declare them idolators just as if they had gone off to worship Apis/Ptah/Osiris (time period dependent).

The Allah of Islam is no more true or legitimate than Zeus or Ra, in that Biblically speaking all false deities are either figments of human imagination or demons masquerading as deific entities.

 

[Ziggidy]

The God of Islam is the God of Abraham...the same God worshipped by Jews and Christians. That's a fact.

It is also common sense...there are only three options:

1)There are no gods.
2)There is one God.
3)There are multiple gods.

If option 2 is correct, then any religion claiming to worship the one true God is technically true...regardless what their religious practices entail, or any "revealed truth" they may claim.

OK, I'll bite.

Who is Jesus? Simple question. Ask a Jew, Muslim....ask anyone. Unless they say Jesus is God, then they do not worship the true God as christians.

There is ONE God - The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit = ONE God. Unless it is all agreed upon, then anyone else worships an idol.

I worship the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the great I Am.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the the Word,andthe Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him, nothing was made that has been made.

If you do not believe Jesus is God in the flesh, then you do not believe in God; but rather a golden calf.

 

[PaulF]

Except that the God of Jews and Christians is not the God of Abraham only, but rather the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob which presents an obvious problem there. That same God (known more peculiarly through many names, such as Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, etc) is peculiar in His desires, mannerisms, modes of action, etc. Furthermore, He has made it peculiarly clear how He is to be worshiped and accepts no other as legitimate other than what He desires. Example most are familiar with: the golden calf? Technically those Israelites there were worshiping the God who had delivered them out of Egypt and might have even ascribed the true name(s) of God to that little idol. God's response was to declare them idolators just as if they had gone off to worship Apis/Ptah/Osiris (time period dependent).

The Allah of Islam is no more true or legitimate than Zeus or Ra, in that Biblically speaking all false deities are either figments of human imagination or demons masquerading as deific entities.

Legitimate?

The legitimacy of any religion is in the eye of the beholder...yours included.

The bible wasn't written by God, it was written by men and edited by council. It tells an unbelievable story that cannot be authenticated. It's core tenet: "God needs me to tell you what He wants" is ridiculous on its face...it simply doesn't pass the sniff test. After two thousand years of any day now it is abundantly clear that Jesus isn't coming back.

He wasn't the Jewish messiah, and the "Son Of Man" has not heralded the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. It's bogus...and once you realize that there's absolutely no reason to believe it the story goes from hopeful to rather stomach-turning, honestly.

I would never make that claim that God cannot exist...but it is painfully obvious that the "God" described by the bible doesn't. At best, Christianity draws an artist's rendition of whatever God actually exists...the same as Islam or Judaism. Worshipping your favored artist's rendition isn't the same as worshipping God...it's idolatry.

 

[PaulF]

OK, I'll bite.

Who is Jesus? Simple question. Ask a Jew, Muslim....ask anyone. Unless they say Jesus is God, then they do not worship the true God as christians.

There is ONE God - The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit = ONE God. Unless it is all agreed upon, then anyone else worships an idol.

I worship the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the great I Am.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the the Word,andthe Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him, nothing was made that has been made.

If you do not believe Jesus is God in the flesh, then you do not believe in God; but rather a golden calf.

It fascinates me that you cannot even consider the idea the you might be the Idolator. Jesus was a Jew. The Jews believe in one God...not a trinity. Even Jesus didn't preach the Trinity. Jews believe in the coming of a messiah that will lead the "Chosen People" to military dominance...if Jesus was really the messiah, why don't the Jews know?

It seems ridiculous to me that the God of Abraham (if it did actually exist) would view Jesus, Christians, Mohammed and Muslins as anything but idolators.

 

[indiucky]

You're thinking of Jojo.



I can't begin to fathom a God who would damn folks for not selecting the exact right sliver of belief out of a near infinite amount of variations. I'm, of course, not the person to comment on the various Christian flavors of what you get damned for. Mohammed did not originally allow Christians and Jews to convert because they were what they were supposed to be. The Qu'ran says they go to Heaven (Paradise) as well. Some later interpretations, particularly the Wahabi, have tried to read it as "pre-Mohammed", as in it was ok to be Christian or Jewish before Mohammed showed you Islam. That's not what it says. It makes no sense to read it like that in context. It certainly makes no sense in how Mohammed himself behaved toward other "People of the book". It is, IMO, a secular push for "us vs them" using religion to further that.

Being "Muslim" isn't just being *a* Muslim. It's surrendering to the will of God. You can be Muslim without being Muslim. Indiucky may disagree with my characterization, but I consider him Muslim as a Christian. He's who he's supposed to be and does his best (as far as I can tell) to live his faith. If, for some reason, he wished to "convert" I'd be happy to witness while he made his proclamation of faith but I don't think it's necessary or would make him a better person unless he was following a calling to do so. Same mountain, different path.

Thanks brother...And now for something completely different.....

 

[Ziggidy]

Saturday morning and looks like everyone woke up!

Good morning.....

Y'all need to quit monkeying around and get on the boat!

 

[Ziggidy]

if Jesus was really the messiah, why don't the Jews know?

God was leading His people for 40 years. Gave them food, protected them, gave them commandments yet they continued to idol golden calfs.

The Jews don't accept Jesus because they refuse to; in a sense, they are still in the desert.....as with any other manmade religion.

Jesus came as prophecy stated He would throughout the Old Testament. Although the Trinity was really never mentioned, it was referenced many times.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

At best, Christianity draws an artist's rendition of whatever God actually exists...the same as Islam or Judaism. Worshipping your favored artist's rendition isn't the same as worshipping God...it's idolatry.

I agree with the first part, though I don't think I'd word it quite so dismissively. The second part, though, falls apart for me. God is infinite. Man is finite. We can never grasp, describe, or comprehend the entirety of what God is. We can only approach him by saying what God isn't (ie, God isn't limited, God isn't confined, etc.) and via analogy. That's not idolatry, that's recognizing our limits and trying our best with the faculties we have.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Birth of 'first red heifer in 2000 years' fulfills Bible prophecy and signals 'end of days'

The Temple Institute announced the birth of the red heifer in Israel on their YouTube channel and said the calf underwent 'extensive examination by rabbinical experts'

 

[Ziggidy]

^^^^^ I crack up when I see some of these posts!

 

[ArcadiaGP]

The Russian Orthodox Church has threatened to retaliate against its Istanbul-based rival if it allows Ukraine to cut spiritual ties with Moscow, ending Russian religious rule in the country

 

[Ziggidy]

^^^ No more Russian collusion?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

These types of arguments don't necessarily prove the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the God but they do reason to the conclusion that to create space, matter, and time, the creator has to be composed of none of those things.

http://reasonsforjesus.com/if-god-created-the-universe-who-created-god/

 

[Bartman]

The legitimacy of any religion is in the eye of the beholder...yours included.

The bible wasn't written by God, it was written by men and edited by council. It tells an unbelievable story that cannot be authenticated.

Given that there are over 2 billion Christians in the world, around one third of the human population, your use of word "unbelievable" seems to be entirely subjective.

 

[PaulF]

I agree with the first part, though I don't think I'd word it quite so dismissively. The second part, though, falls apart for me. God is infinite. Man is finite. We can never grasp, describe, or comprehend the entirety of what God is. We can only approach him by saying what God isn't (ie, God isn't limited, God isn't confined, etc.) and via analogy. That's not idolatry, that's recognizing our limits and trying our best with the faculties we have.

These conversations add an extra layer of challenge for me...I don't mean to sound dismissive or flippant, but for me this is much more like talking about comic books or movies...I firmly believe that Superman would kick Batman's ass in straight-up fight and I'll defend my position until the cows come home, but I also firmly believe that neither of those people actually exist. I'm not looking to make this personal with anyone, and at the end of the day, what and how you choose to believe doesn't make a bit of difference to me as long as you agree to leave me out of it...I don't wan't to be a part of anyone else's fandom. (Generic "you" here)

Anyway, back to the convo:

Idolatry is probably not the best word for me to have used there. It has too strong a connotation within context. I'm not talking about the sin of idolatry, so much as the more natural human act of iconography, of attaching undo significance to objects based on a cognitive association. Does that make sense?

As I understand it (and PLEASE correct me if I have this wrong), it is strongly discouraged within Islam to create images of The Prophet, or of God Himself. I think that serves an important purpose, it prevents people from falling into the trap of misplacing their devotion onto an object...away from God.

Well, I think religion itself contains that same trap. People can put too much significance in a certain story or ritual, and miss ultimate point of that experience: to become closer to God.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

As I understand it (and PLEASE correct me if I have this wrong), it is strongly discouraged within Islam to create images of The Prophet, or of God Himself

The most common school of thought is that drawing/sculpting/painting/etc anything with a soul (or sentience, if you prefer) is forbidden. And yes, the original purpose was to avoid idolatry. It's not a monolithic belief, though, and you'll find schools of thought that range from you can't render images of anything occurring in the natural world, to you can't render images of living things but mountains or a sunset would be ok, to the same plus plant life, to the same plus animals, to the same plus generic human forms (so a mannequin with no face), etc. etc.

Well, I think religion itself contains that same trap. People can put too much significance in a certain story or ritual, and miss ultimate point of that experience: to become closer to God.

I agree. Orthodoxy vs orthopraxy is something I've brought up many times.