CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[PaulF]

I have no experience with either. But try walking into the wrong Orthodox service.

Try walking into a Mormon temple.

Try walking into Cracker Barrel while youse guys are all at Church.

It's heaven.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Try walking into Cracker Barrel while youse guys are all at Church.

It's heaven.

The advantage of going to a church that starts service a little earlier is we can get into Casa Brava without having to wait for a table.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

This is all true. Basic tenants of Mormonism...

1. The Book of Mormon was translated from 2 tablets that were apparently only available to one man, and then somehow "lost". This man had no linguistic background to help him translate the tablets, but Mormons are to believe that they were translated without error, and are equal in inspiration to the Holy Scriptures.

2. God the Father (this is important to know him as Father) was not always God. He was once a man as ordinary as you and I, living on a far away planet, and was able to ascend to Godhood. He was able to procreate with The Mother and have billions of "spirit babies". Those spirit babies are incarnated through us, making us spiritual beings. It is important to understand that Mormons will always refer to God as "The Father", and it has a completely different meaning than main line Christianity.

3. Through adherence to the teachings of the Mormon church, we can ascend to Godhood as well and rule our own universe. Basic requirements are somewhat sketchy, but must include 2 years of missionary service, you must be male, you must be married, and your marriage must be performed in the Mormon tabernacle in Salt Lake City This may have been changed to any Mormon Tabernacle). Those who do not attain Godhood but still follow the requirements may still be ushered into the "First Heaven" which is only reserved for Mormons. Those who are "good" Mormons, but are not able to complete the requirements, will be ushered into the "Second Heaven" which is obviously not as good as the first.

4. Revelation from God can still be given to the Mormon Priest, resulting in new or changing doctrine without any need for validation. In other words if the Priest claims to have new revelation from God, his word is treated as God's word. The most prolific example of this was when the IRS threatened to revoke the Mormon church's tax exempt status because they would not allow African American men to become priests. (Mormon teaching states that Africans are "Sons of Cain" and are marked by God) Shortly after, the Mormon church received a new revelation from God that black men could now become priests. Convenient.

5. There is no Trinity. Jesus was the brother of Satan, and they were the first of the "Spirit Babies". Jesus did in fact come to earth as a prophet, died, and ascended again to be with the Father. He later came back to earth to bring the message of how to ascend to Godhood to the American Native Indians. His message to them was recorded on the tablets that Joseph Smith translated. Then conveniently lost.


So YES, Mormonism is a cult. Some sects may not be as fundamental as others (sleeping with the leader, polygamy, etc), but at its core it denies almost every major Christian doctrine. They may use the same words as many Christians, but those words carry a completely different meaning to them. Their message is based on para-scriptural writings that cannot be verified.

Thanks for filling out my earlier post.

Aren't we warned that if a prophet comes to us and adds to or subtracts from the Gospel; that if any one that claims to be a prophet and that if a single one of his prophecies fails to come to be, that person is no prophet of God and we are to disregard him/her? If memory serves, on its face Mormonism is based on J. Smith's teachings and prophecies. Any number of his prophecies failed to come to be, so that pretty much paints Mormonism at the very least a misguided...probably easily could be considered a false gospel, maybe heretical? The term "cult" is usually considered by modern ears to be offensive. And this next statement isn't necessarily and only directly directed at your post but to use it to jump off of to say: The term "cult" might fit Mormonism but there are ways to debate their teachings without using terms that will put them on defense and shut down their listening.

 

[T.Lex]

Doesn't every cult describe how to discern its "truth" when compared to other cults?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Doesn't every cult describe how to discern its "truth" when compared to other cults?

The enemy has great skill in making it difficult to discern truth.

 

[rvb]

Try walking into a Mormon temple.

Yea, when I lived on the east coast, I went with a Mormon friend to watch her choir do a Christmas show. Thought it would be a good show and I was looking forward to seeing the inside of the temple that sits high above the DC beltway. That was when I learned only "card carrying" Mormons can enter. There was a photo of the temple inside the multi-million-dollar visitor center (where the concert was held). She wouldn’t show her ID card (but google will).

So yes, definitely checks the "secretive" box...

Mormon Temple Recommend

 

[ArcadiaGP]

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The topic of instruments came up in the shooter thread. I said I'd answer here.

No instruments, is that Sunni or Shia?

It's actually disputed in many Islamic schools (denominations for Christians). There are scholars on both sides for centuries. The debate centers around a specific verse, and to paraphrase it's that men who wear silk, drink alcohol, and play instruments are in for a bad time. The anti-instrument folks believe this is a universal prohibition. However, in context it seems to be warning a specific group of poly-theist worshippers that God will punish them for their rituals (which used instruments, etc) praising a false pantheon. This is also backed up by Mohammed allowing a sort of percussion instrument at special events and that David was given the Psalms, which were performed with instruments.

The Sufi school relies heavily on instruments. Wahhabi (the no-fun Saudi version that is more about Saudi than Islam, IMO, and sprouts most of the terrorists) considers music in general sinful (haram).

 

[2A_Tom]

Thank you. I used to interact with a lot of Muslims in South Chicago and I remember that there was some discussion about it.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Actually, I see Mormonism to be pretty similar to Islam. Along comes a guy that claims to be a prophet, writes a book with a bunch more rules about attire and beverage choices, de-values women, downgrades the importance of Christ and his sacrifice.

Voilà!

What rules about attire do you think are in the Quran? Hint: Veils, hijabs, etc. aren't Quranic. They are traditions of peoples who converted to Islam and that are associated with Islam, but have no roots in the Quran. Dress modestly and gender appropriately, cover your breasts if you're female, and wear nice clothes to the mosque if you can (and arguably, cover your hair when you pray for females*) sums up the "dress code" of the Quran.


*Covering the hair/head while praying wasn't an innovation of Islam, it was carried over from Judaism and Christianity. It's encouraged and considered polite, but not an absolute necessity by most. I'm not sure the origin of the practice, my understanding is the Jews realize it isn't in the Talmud either but value it anyway.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I may have asked this before... but do you non-Mormon religious-types here view Mormonism as a cult?

So with the understanding cult vs religion can get flaky and it's sort of like pond vs lake or pornography vs art (we all know extreme examples when we see it, but there's some blurred lines quite often...) I'll advance my thoughts.

I think I really boil down to this question: Who benefits? If the group exists to enrich, empower, and serve the leader it's probably a cult. If the leader exists to enrich, empower, and serve the group, it's probably a religion. The Mormons I've met, and served with in the Army, seemed like decent people who were set up for success by their beliefs. They did not seem to be offering their bodies or material wealth to some guru/prophet/etc. I can't make that jive with my image of a cult.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Thank you. I used to interact with a lot of Muslims in South Chicago and I remember that there was some discussion about it.

No problem. With the understanding I'm no scholar, I think it's reasonably clear that music and instruments are ok as long as they aren't interfering with other things you need to do. You shouldn't be singing and playing instruments, basically wasting time, when you're leaving your crops unharvested, your prayers unsaid, etc.

Honestly, a lot of the rules Mohammed laid out boil down to "work when you're supposed to work, then relax and screw off in moderation when your work is done."

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Landmark Pennsylvania grand jury report finds more than 300 ‘predator priests’ sexually abused children

300+ ‘Predator Priests’ Named In Pa. Grand Jury Sex Abuse Report: ‘They Were Raping Little Boys & Girls’

Wuerl wrote to priests to defend himself on the eve of the scheduled Tuesday, Aug. 14, 2018, release of a grand jury report investigating child sexual abuse in six of Pennsylvania’s Roman Catholic dioceses.

Report here, with some cases involving redacted names.

https://cbspittsburgh.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/interimredactedreportandresponses.pdf

 

[T.Lex]

Prayers for the victims, that they may find peace and healing.

There are no words to fully describe the betrayals by those priests, and those that protected them.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Prayers for the victims, that they may find peace and healing.

There are no words to fully describe the betrayals by those priests, and those that protected them.

It's not exactly analogous but like when a fellow gun owner does something stupid, reckless, or criminal with a gun both make those of us trying to be responsible or trying to walk the walk look like those slugs. We should call out the idiot gun owners and we should bring predators to justice.

 

[T.Lex]

It's not exactly analogous but like when a fellow gun owner does something stupid, reckless, or criminal with a gun both make those of us trying to be responsible or trying to walk the walk look like those slugs. We should call out the idiot gun owners and we should bring predators to justice.

I appreciate that, truly.

Yet, I feel this more deeply than I do anything related to firearms. Without minimizing or taking away from the actual victims of these acts, these kinds of betrayals - perhaps even institutionalized betrayals - is a betrayal of the entire congregation.

Let's state it plainly: this isn't something new. This isn't the first time this has come up. That it has continued is... literally, I can't think of the right word. (Believe it or not.) A word salad is the best I can do. Shameful. Disgusting. Unforgivable (or nearly so). Frustrating. Scary. Doubt-inducing.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Let's state it plainly: this isn't something new. This isn't the first time this has come up. That it has continued is... literally, I can't think of the right word. (Believe it or not.) A word salad is the best I can do. Shameful. Disgusting. Unforgivable (or nearly so). Frustrating. Scary. Doubt-inducing.

Why is it so prevalent in this realm?

Is it actually being covered up and excused in some cases?

 

[T.Lex]

Why is it so prevalent in this realm?

Is it actually being covered up and excused in some cases?

These opinions (rather obviously) are my own.

First, when taken as a whole, I suspect the incidence of child molesters who are Catholic priests is about the same rate as clergy of other faith traditions. But, for some legitimate (and IMHO illegitimate reasons), the Catholic priest part gets a significantly greater amount of attention.

Second, though, you know how druggies always seem to be able to find drugs in different cities? Almost like there's some common quality that people engaged in that activity seem to be able to tune in to? I suspect that within the administration of the American priesthood, there were places where priests figured out they could go and get a certain amount of coverage. Or have more leeway. Or vulnerable populations that they knew wouldn't be believed. Or higher-level administrators more tolerant of "baseless accusations."

I believe there was a subculture that allowed those priests to avoid responsibility.

I can personally vouch that, at least for the laity in the parishes I've been involved in, there are background checks and significant rules that are enforced, like having 2 trained adults present whenever interacting with kids. These protocols have become more robust in the last 15 years.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I appreciate that, truly.

Yet, I feel this more deeply than I do anything related to firearms. Without minimizing or taking away from the actual victims of these acts, these kinds of betrayals - perhaps even institutionalized betrayals - is a betrayal of the entire congregation.

Let's state it plainly: this isn't something new. This isn't the first time this has come up. That it has continued is... literally, I can't think of the right word. (Believe it or not.) A word salad is the best I can do. Shameful. Disgusting. Unforgivable (or nearly so). Frustrating. Scary. Doubt-inducing.

I hear you. I am not catholic but it reflects on all Christians. It is maddening for me as well. We cannot continue to make excuses and prevent justice from being done.

 

[breakingcontact]

I was out of town this weekend so I went to a local church by my folks.

Church of Christ

Was very impressed and thankful!

Will be back with my reformed baptists this weekend, but feel like I found a church I can go to when visiting the ancestral homeland.