CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[T.Lex]

The bushel basket (i.e. number of priest globally) is vast, so the number of bad apples... statistics and all.

I guess my line of thinking was more like, almost all Protestant pastors are married, and if one wasn't... well... I'd have a little voice in the back of my head about that one.

Does that make sense? In other words, it's pretty easy for a predator to blend in when they're all forced to be unmarried.

Yeah, there's probably an element of that.

I can tell you that - especially since the Boston situation - Catholic parents (and kids) are more vigilant. (Again, this is in my circles.) I am aware of a situation where there's a priest in a parish that regularly works out in the school gym at the same time there are kids practices going on. No big deal. He does his thing, the kids and coaches do theirs, and it is very parallel. Of course, some light conversation and ribbing about "one more lap" or "I think you forgot a plate on the bar" kinda thing.

But, there's another priest who would sometimes be in the gym at the same time. He seemed more interested in certain sports of certain ages, and was just kind of hanging around. Nothing specific, but a bit creepy. Some parents noticed, some emails were sent, and that stopped happening.

We want the priests to be "integrated" with the families. I have no problem with them coming to practices or games (partly to make sure I'm coaching appropriately). But, at the same time, a certain veil is now gone.

We've told our kids to trust their gut. If something doesn't feel right, say something.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Is the RCC willing to have a discussion, "Hey, maybe forcing men to constantly suppress sexual urges, despite the Apostle Paul's prescription to get married, might be a bad thing, and quite possibly anti-Biblical?"

I've batted around blaming the requirement for abstinence and not having a family as being an issue, but ultimately rejected it. It's *very* easy to have anonymous sex with consenting adults in the days of apps that let you do just that, or taking a few bucks and cruising up and down E Washington St. I can't think that otherwise correctly wired men would turn to children just due to abstinence. Breaking their vows in other ways, sure, but going to the point you victimize children seems like skipping a lot of steps if you aren't wired wrong.

 

[T.Lex]

Hey - my grandmother lives near E. Washington. (WAY east.)

Come to think of it, she still lives on her own. And says "social security" takes care of everything.

I wonder if....

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Hey - my grandmother lives near E. Washington. (WAY east.)

Come to think of it, she still lives on her own. And says "social security" takes care of everything.

I wonder if....

There are some professionals in the senior leagues...

 

[foszoe]

Haven't begun to read all the responses in the last few pages but if the scriptures say these things are going to happen and a person claims to be a bible only Christian, why do some people, not just forum people, seem surprised when they actually happen??

 

[foszoe]

Studies I have seen on the subject show that the rate is similar across all faith traditions and also the general population. Atheists/Agnostics do not hold the high ground on this issue.

It is the covering up by the Roman Catholic Church at what appears to be a diocesan level that disturbs me.

From my understanding Rome has been trying to institute procedural changes to stop this kind of behavior and that most of the Boston cases were from decades ago with only 2 still within the statues of limitations.

Maybe the controls put in place are dealing more appropriately with this issue now but past abuses will continue to haunt Rome basically until death of survivors from a despicable era.

These opinions (rather obviously) are my own.

First, when taken as a whole, I suspect the incidence of child molesters who are Catholic priests is about the same rate as clergy of other faith traditions. But, for some legitimate (and IMHO illegitimate reasons), the Catholic priest part gets a significantly greater amount of attention.

Second, though, you know how druggies always seem to be able to find drugs in different cities? Almost like there's some common quality that people engaged in that activity seem to be able to tune in to? I suspect that within the administration of the American priesthood, there were places where priests figured out they could go and get a certain amount of coverage. Or have more leeway. Or vulnerable populations that they knew wouldn't be believed. Or higher-level administrators more tolerant of "baseless accusations."

I believe there was a subculture that allowed those priests to avoid responsibility.

I can personally vouch that, at least for the laity in the parishes I've been involved in, there are background checks and significant rules that are enforced, like having 2 trained adults present whenever interacting with kids. These protocols have become more robust in the last 15 years.

 

[foszoe]

Taking a step back, and since this is the general thread, do you believe that religions in general and Christianity in particular, believe that prayer provides someone with a magical aura that protects them from all harm?

To be a theist, would that be the deal breaker for you? For on first read, that is how I would sum up your post.

You answered the rest of your own questions to your own satisfaction already it seems, so I will let them be.

I like that turn of phrase, and I agree..."Atheist Maker" indeed.

So, to speak directly to your point...Jesus says that God answers prayers:



Do you think those kids prayed? What do you think they heard in return?

Rape. Their prayers were answered with rape.

But the rapist pedophiles are forgiven, aren't they? Aren't those sins also washed away by the blood of the lamb? If you love God and accept Jesus' sacrifice is there any crime between people that excludes you from the Kingdom of Heaven?

It sure looks to me (and I think most other non-believers) like the answer to that last question is no...and that's absurd.

The rapists are forgiven. The raped...those driven from Christ's bosom due to the evil performed by its very stewards...well, it's Hell for them, in this life and the next.

Why would anyone choose to associate with people that rape children and believe they will still be welcomed into God's promised land? Why believe in a god that answers the prayers of a pedophile over the prayers of a tortured child? Why believe in any of it? You're damned right this is going to create Atheists.

The emperor has no clothes, and events like this make it ever harder to deny it.

 

[historian]

It is the covering up by the Roman Catholic Church at what appears to be a diocesan level that disturbs me.

This. Although some of the descriptions coming out of PA makes it seem like it is a large swath of normal ones who covered it up/participated. It is disgusting what some of them did in groups. The gold cross thing is really out there, as is the "crucifix" one. It is beyond despicable what went on.

 

[T.Lex]

This. Although some of the descriptions coming out of PA makes it seem like it is a large swath of normal ones who covered it up/participated. It is disgusting what some of them did in groups. The gold cross thing is really out there, as is the "crucifix" one. It is beyond despicable what went on.

Agreed.

 

[foszoe]

Studies show that rates among "celebrates" is also in line with the general population. I should add its been a few years since I looked at this research so some new studies may have shed new light.

I've batted around blaming the requirement for abstinence and not having a family as being an issue, but ultimately rejected it. It's *very* easy to have anonymous sex with consenting adults in the days of apps that let you do just that, or taking a few bucks and cruising up and down E Washington St. I can't think that otherwise correctly wired men would turn to children just due to abstinence. Breaking their vows in other ways, sure, but going to the point you victimize children seems like skipping a lot of steps if you aren't wired wrong.

 

[PaulF]

Taking a step back, and since this is the general thread, do you believe that religions in general and Christianity in particular, believe that prayer provides someone with a magical aura that protects them from all harm?

To be a theist, would that be the deal breaker for you? For on first read, that is how I would sum up your post.

You answered the rest of your own questions to your own satisfaction already it seems, so I will let them be.

No sir, I don’t believe that prayer gives the penitent any type of aura. I also don’t believe that is the widely-held belief of Christians in general.

I don’t make the claim that God answers prayers, Jesus does.

I think incidents like this are all the proof needed to show that isn’t true...God doesn’t even answer the prayers of His children abused by His own clergy, let alone those of us beyond the innocence of childhood. It rings true with my own experience, as well...you can try to talk to god all you want, but don’t hold your breath waiting for a response.

I don’t expect a god to answer prayers. But I do expect if “the son of god” claims that your prayers will be answered there needs to be some truth to the claim...if I am expected to believe in that god. My theism isn’t dependent on what others claim god can do...it’s based on what I’ve seen god do myself...which has been absolutely nothing.

If the prayers of a child being abused by his pastor aren’t worth answering, what prayers are? If a god is supposed to answer prayers, but doesn’t...what is the point of believing in that god?

Men make up gods all the time, and have since the beginning of history. Events like these reinforce my belief that the Christian god is just one more example of this very human behavior.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I don’t expect a god to answer prayers. But I do expect if “the son of god” claims that your prayers will be answered there needs to be some truth to the claim...if I am expected to believe in that god.

You quoted John 15. Do you believe Jesus was claiming to be a plant of some sort? Or that he is pruned so that he can be more fruitful, that he believes himself to be a grapevine? I think it's a bit of a stretch to take the chapter as literal when it's *plain* it's allegorical in context. Prayer actually isn't about asking God for things. He already knows what you want, after all.

 

[foszoe]

No sir, I don’t believe that prayer gives the penitent any type of aura. I also don’t believe that is the widely-held belief of Christians in general.

I don’t make the claim that God answers prayers, Jesus does.

I think incidents like this are all the proof needed to show that isn’t true...God doesn’t even answer the prayers of His children abused by His own clergy, let alone those of us beyond the innocence of childhood. It rings true with my own experience, as well...you can try to talk to god all you want, but don’t hold your breath waiting for a response.

I don’t expect a god to answer prayers. But I do expect if “the son of god” claims that your prayers will be answered there needs to be some truth to the claim...if I am expected to believe in that god. My theism isn’t dependent on what others claim god can do...it’s based on what I’ve seen god do myself...which has been absolutely nothing.

If the prayers of a child being abused by his pastor aren’t worth answering, what prayers are? If a god is supposed to answer prayers, but doesn’t...what is the point of believing in that god?

Men make up gods all the time, and have since the beginning of history. Events like these reinforce my belief that the Christian god is just one more example of this very human behavior.

Yet if it wasn't for religion in general and Christianity in particular that made such acts wrong, how would you know them to be so?

What are some underlying moral behaviors that aren't rooted in religion?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

It's probably a good thing not all of our prayers are answered. We're a sorry, sinful lot already. Could you imagine what we'd be like if all we had to do is ask God for what we wanted and he gave it to us? We'd surely be worse monsters than we already are.

If we could ask God to cure mom's cancer, dementia, heart failure, etc. would we ever allow anyone to die and be with God? Why would we ever have to give regard to our sinful behaviors, if we could simply ask a glorified Santa Claus to relieve us of the consequences of our actions? We'd never know the joy of charity, of helping the less fortunate if we could outsource the job to God. We'd probably give a flip less about them than we do now because they could do their own praying and get themselves out of their own difficulties. I'd say a god that answers all prayers would be much like a parent that gives into every whim of a child -- that's not love...that's spoiling them.

 

[Dead Duck]

It's probably a good thing not all of our prayers are answered. We're a sorry, sinful lot already. Could you imagine what we'd be like if all we had to do is ask God for what we wanted and he gave it to us? We'd surely be worse monsters than we already are.

If we could ask God to cure mom's cancer, dementia, heart failure, etc. would we ever allow anyone to die and be with God? Why would we ever have to give regard to our sinful behaviors, if we could simply ask a glorified Santa Claus to relieve us of the consequences of our actions? We'd never know the joy of charity, of helping the less fortunate if we could outsource the job to God. We'd probably give a flip less about them than we do now because they could do their own praying and get themselves out of their own difficulties. I'd say a god that answers all prayers would be much like a parent that gives into every whim of a child -- that's not love...that's spoiling them.

[video=youtube;C2SkqaCO9c4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2SkqaCO9c4[/video]

 

[PaulF]

You quoted John 15. Do you believe Jesus was claiming to be a plant of some sort? Or that he is pruned so that he can be more fruitful, that he believes himself to be a grapevine? I think it's a bit of a stretch to take the chapter as literal when it's *plain* it's allegorical in context. Prayer actually isn't about asking God for things. He already knows what you want, after all.

Jesus says that God gives that which is asked of Him. He says it over and over again throughout the Bible. I don't think it's reasonable to claim that point as allegorical.

John 14:12-14

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 13 "Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

Matthew 21:21-22

21 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. 22 "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

Luke 11:8-10

8 "I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will get up and give him as much as he needs. 9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 "For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.

Here are three examples where Jesus Himself said that God answers prayers if you ask Him to. I can list a dozen more. Are you saying that Jesus doesn't really make this claim? That his multiple references to God answering prayers is entirely allegorical? I don't think the facts support that conclusion.

I think I have adequately supported the first part of my position: Jesus says God answers prayers.

The second part of my position goes: God does not answer prayers.

In 2006 Harvard released a study that showed that Prayer had no positive effect on the outcomes of heart surgery patients. God's influence was shown to be the same as random chance. This was hardly a new concept. Francis Galton wrote an oft-cited and thorough dissertation on this very topic in 1872. Sam Harris and Christopher Hitches both make eloquent cases for this idea. Matt Dillahunty will give you a more unfiltered (though fairly typical) atheist take on the efficacy of prayer...but these guys are atheist celebrity personalities, and their content may not be palatable to believers. I won't link them, but if you're interested a quick youtube search will get you there.

Logically, it seems apparent to me that prayer has no effect. If God gave his believers the things they wanted in even a sliver of cases Christian societies would be vastly different than those of its neighbors. Fewer sick, fewer poor, fewer early dead. It would be measurable if that were the case. It's not.

The conclusion I reach is that Jesus was wrong about this. I'm sure I don't have to explain how that concept, once applied, can undermine a great many of the foundational assumptions of Christianity.

 

[PaulF]

Yet if it wasn't for religion in general and Christianity in particular that made such acts wrong, how would you know them to be so?

What are some underlying moral behaviors that aren't rooted in religion?

Well, I think we've had this discussion before. The history of the world is literally full of people that never heard of the God of Abraham or His dedicated followers. Those people lived (or continue to live in) in functioning societies. Societies that don't rape each other, murder each other, or eat each other at any higher rate than Christian societies tend to. Human beings are social animals, we have evolved the broad moral compass necessary to navigate a social life. Empathy, kindness, love...these aren't religious values, they are human values.

I think we are wired to naturally find some things "wrong". Our disgust reflex comes to mind as an example, but I think most of what we believe to be right or wrong are learned behaviors. Social groups will generally resist behaviors they see as counterproductive to their own interests, and more readily engage in behaviors they view as beneficial. I think that, along these lines, social boundaries that emerge tend to fundamentally inform the morality of the group.

What's generally best for any given group is probably not that different from what is generally best for any other given group, so it makes sense to me that behaviors like monogamy and parental responsibility are (generally) universally valued among disparate human groups, and behaviors like theft, rape, and murder are generally reviled universally.

I guess it comes boils down to this for me. When you say (effectively) we need God to live a moral life, it sounds to me like you are saying we need your god to live a moral life, and I think history has proved that empirically untrue.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Jesus says that God gives that which is asked of Him. He says it over and over again throughout the Bible. I don't think it's reasonable to claim that point as allegorical.

John 14:12-14


Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 13 "Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

So if we're to take that literally, if I pray for your death due to my jealousy of you, I'll get it if I phrase it right? Surely you don't believe that's what's actually being said.

21 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. 22 "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

So, Jesus is using a fig tree as a direct analogy to illustrate a larger point (essentially how quickly a culture can go into decline, IIRC, but I could be wrong). "To move mountains" being a common analogy to accomplish a difficult task then just as it is now, but you insist this must be literal? That what is meant is if you can resurface the Earth via prayer? To what end?

You are essentially refuting the notion of prayer as used by "prosperity preachers". A highly literal translation of verses stripped of context to support that if you pray for a new private jet, you'll get one if you just believe hard enough. That's magic, not prayer. I *suspect* you'll find few people here who have that notion of how prayer works.

For me, it's fairly simple. The Quran says God answers prayers, but the answer could easily be "no" or "wait" as well as "yes". You may get what you desire after your death. If your prayer really to save the life of grandma, or to spend more time with her? Which is the actual desire? So if you're reunited in an afterlife, prayer deferred but prayer answered. To steal a quote, "I don't worry if my prayers will be answered, I worry about the content of my prayers." God knows what I want, and almost certainly better than I do. Focusing my prayer is a way to remind *me* what I value, and what I want, and how to obtain it. It's to instill humility and to remember that my successes are not entirely dependent upon my own skills nor are my failures entirely dependent upon my shortcomings. It's about peace, and forgiveness of self and others. That's sort of the surface of it, I suspect like trying to describe color to a blind man you may give someone the sort-of but it feels incomplete and like a shell of experiencing the real thing. That's prayer and being closer to God. Not throwing literal mountains into seas or summoning up jet planes.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Yet if it wasn't for religion in general and Christianity in particular that made such acts wrong, how would you know them to be so?

What are some underlying moral behaviors that aren't rooted in religion?

Christianity, and religion as a whole has no lock on morality. The issue of "the righteous pagan" specifically recognizes this.

As for "rooted in religion", that's very much a chicken and egg question, now isn't it? How exactly does one prove the original roots of, say, don't steal?

 

[historian]

I believe that this can be of benefit to the discussion. Full disclosure, I love Tim Keller.

[video=youtube;AkcouxJE6o4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkcouxJE6o4[/video]