CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[Dead Duck]

Landmark Pennsylvania grand jury report finds more than 300 ‘predator priests’ sexually abused children

300+ ‘Predator Priests’ Named In Pa. Grand Jury Sex Abuse Report: ‘They Were Raping Little Boys & Girls’




Report here, with some cases involving redacted names.

https://cbspittsburgh.files.wordpress.com/2018/08/interimredactedreportandresponses.pdf

This is one huge "Atheist-Maker".
Which is why I still wonder - If it's not in the bible, and God didn't ask for it, then why did man add all this extra fu-fu? Tradition?
It's been going on and getting covered up way before my time. Defend it all you want but is this Priest/altar boy thing is also some kind of "tradition"? Is it not? Somehow it's still here and it's here to stay. I didn't say it was a good tradition, but that's what it is.

Ya. This is very embarrassing and not just for the religious folks but for the entire planet. Makes me not want to associate with humans anymore. No amount of hail-Mary forgiveness crap will ever allow these monsters into Heaven. Obviously that's not up to us but while they are on earth they should be begging forgiveness in the Catholic dungeons in Europe until He wants to deal with them and not shuffled around to other churches like the Popes keep doing over and over...

 

[Ziggidy]

This is one huge "Atheist-Maker".
Which is why I still wonder - If it's not in the bible, and God didn't ask for it, then why did man add all this extra fu-fu? Tradition?
It's been going on and getting covered up way before my time. Defend it all you want but is this Priest/altar boy thing is also some kind of "tradition"? Is it not? Somehow it's still here and it's here to stay. I didn't say it was a good tradition, but that's what it is.

Ya. This is very embarrassing and not just for the religious folks but for the entire planet. Makes me not want to associate with humans anymore. No amount of hail-Mary forgiveness crap will ever allow these monsters into Heaven. Obviously that's not up to us but while they are on earth they should be begging forgiveness in the Catholic dungeons in Europe until He wants to deal with them and not shuffled around to other churches like the Popes keep doing over and over...

Please don't hold back.....

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I think this guy captures our feelings on this matter.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/3450...content=062316-podcast&utm_campaign=mattwalsh

 

[PaulF]

This is one huge "Atheist-Maker".
Which is why I still wonder - If it's not in the bible, and God didn't ask for it, then why did man add all this extra fu-fu? Tradition?
It's been going on and getting covered up way before my time. Defend it all you want but is this Priest/altar boy thing is also some kind of "tradition"? Is it not? Somehow it's still here and it's here to stay. I didn't say it was a good tradition, but that's what it is.

Ya. This is very embarrassing and not just for the religious folks but for the entire planet. Makes me not want to associate with humans anymore. No amount of hail-Mary forgiveness crap will ever allow these monsters into Heaven. Obviously that's not up to us but while they are on earth they should be begging forgiveness in the Catholic dungeons in Europe until He wants to deal with them and not shuffled around to other churches like the Popes keep doing over and over...

I like that turn of phrase, and I agree..."Atheist Maker" indeed.

So, to speak directly to your point...Jesus says that God answers prayers:

If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

Do you think those kids prayed? What do you think they heard in return?

Rape. Their prayers were answered with rape.

But the rapist pedophiles are forgiven, aren't they? Aren't those sins also washed away by the blood of the lamb? If you love God and accept Jesus' sacrifice is there any crime between people that excludes you from the Kingdom of Heaven?

It sure looks to me (and I think most other non-believers) like the answer to that last question is no...and that's absurd.

The rapists are forgiven. The raped...those driven from Christ's bosom due to the evil performed by its very stewards...well, it's Hell for them, in this life and the next.

Why would anyone choose to associate with people that rape children and believe they will still be welcomed into God's promised land? Why believe in a god that answers the prayers of a pedophile over the prayers of a tortured child? Why believe in any of it? You're damned right this is going to create Atheists.

The emperor has no clothes, and events like this make it ever harder to deny it.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Yeah, things like this... don't help.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I like that turn of phrase, and I agree..."Atheist Maker" indeed.

So, to speak directly to your point...Jesus says that God answers prayers:



Do you think those kids prayed? What do you think they heard in return?

Rape. Their prayers were answered with rape.

But the rapist pedophiles are forgiven, aren't they? Aren't those sins also washed away by the blood of the lamb? If you love God and accept Jesus' sacrifice is there any crime between people that excludes you from the Kingdom of Heaven?

It sure looks to me (and I think most other non-believers) like the answer to that last question is no...and that's absurd.

The rapists are forgiven. The raped...those driven from Christ's bosom due to the evil performed by its very stewards...well, it's Hell for them, in this life and the next.

Why would anyone choose to associate with people that rape children and believe they will still be welcomed into God's promised land? Why believe in a god that answers the prayers of a pedophile over the prayers of a tortured child? Why believe in any of it? You're damned right this is going to create Atheists.

The emperor has no clothes, and events like this make it ever harder to deny it.

I don't know if I can do justice with a response here but I'll try.

This is a common and understandable line of thinking. It's hard to look the victim or his/her family in the eye and try to explain to them why God let evil happen to them. It is. To someone that is hurting...maybe the lowest points of their lives, trying to excuse why a "good god" would have allowed this is next to impossible.

But if you believe that believing in God means you'll live a life of rainbows and puppy dogs, that was never promised. We were warned that evil would assault us from all places that even those claiming to praise God would sometimes be of the enemy. Praying to God to avoid any manner of earthly pain, whether it's cancer, the death of a loved one, or as in this story, sexual assault isn't some sort of get out of jail free card. Even Christ, asked if his cup could be given to another. This earthly life is a temporary state. We have to trust that whatever evil that can harm us in this life that in eternity, we'll live forever.

Hopefully, these monsters will get their earthly justice. What happens when they meet God is between them and their maker. But I hope our justice system gives them what they deserve in this life. To the victims, we must pray for their healing and for them to somehow be able to turn this into something positive.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

I don't know if I can do justice with a response here but I'll try.

This is a common and understandable line of thinking. It's hard to look the victim or his/her family in the eye and try to explain to them why God let evil happen to them. It is. To someone that is hurting...maybe the lowest points of their lives, trying to excuse why a "good god" would have allowed this is next to impossible.

But if you believe that believing in God means you'll live a life of rainbows and puppy dogs, that was never promised. We were warned that evil would assault us from all places that even those claiming to praise God would sometimes be of the enemy. Praying to God to avoid any manner of earthly pain, whether it's cancer, the death of a loved one, or as in this story, sexual assault isn't some sort of get out of jail free card. Even Christ, asked if his cup could be given to another. This earthly life is a temporary state. We have to trust that whatever evil that can harm us in this life that in eternity, we'll live forever.

Hopefully, these monsters will get their earthly justice. What happens when they meet God is between them and their maker. But I hope our justice system gives them what they deserve in this life. To the victims, we must pray for their healing and for them to somehow be able to turn this into something positive.

. . . But it doesn't help that these establishments are enabling this, sometimes doing irreparable damage to these kids... damage they should never have had to endure... nor the parents... because there's supposed to be an understood trust with these people.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

. . . But it doesn't help that these establishments are enabling this, sometimes doing irreparable damage to these kids... damage they should never have had to endure... nor the parents... because there's supposed to be an understood trust with these people.

I hope you're not reading that as I'm in anyway excusing the failure of the catholic church for not allowing justice to be done on the perpetrators. Because I am certainly not.

Even if these people truly were convicted by the Holy Spirit and earnestly repented (which, by the way doesn't just mean saying you're sorry), God would forgive them as he would any of us but that doesn't mean he would expect you to avoid justice in this life. Keep in mind, he even allows some of that justice to include the death penalty...(which I would contend some of these priests would qualify for).

 

[CampingJosh]

But the rapist pedophiles are forgiven, aren't they? Aren't those sins also washed away by the blood of the lamb? If you love God and accept Jesus' sacrifice is there any crime between people that excludes you from the Kingdom of Heaven?

It sure looks to me (and I think most other non-believers) like the answer to that last question is no...and that's absurd.

The rapists are forgiven. The raped...those driven from Christ's bosom due to the evil performed by its very stewards...well, it's Hell for them, in this life and the next.

Why would anyone choose to associate with people that rape children and believe they will still be welcomed into God's promised land? Why believe in a god that answers the prayers of a pedophile over the prayers of a tortured child? Why believe in any of it? You're damned right this is going to create Atheists.

The emperor has no clothes, and events like this make it ever harder to deny it.

There are many passages that could be used to address this situation.

Matthew 18:6 (Jesus speaking) "If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

James 2:15-17 also speaks to the idea that belief cannot be separated from actions. I know that my fellow Protestant brethren will vehemently oppose any suggestion of the necessity of works for salvation, but I think that the fairest reading of James (as a whole book) is this: When professed belief is consistently contrasted by the person's actions, the belief/faith is not real and the person is not a Christian. (After all, what could it mean to be judged more strictly if none of what we do matters for judgment?)

1 Corinthians 5 talks about how sexual immorality is unacceptable within the church. Paul concludes in v. 15 by telling the church "Remove the evil person from among you." This should have been done in droves, and it needs to be. Not just in the Catholic Church, but in any church where such a thing is happening.

But none of this is going to be meaningful to the children and families who were betrayed and abused. Betrayal undermines trust. I pray for the victims. God have mercy.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

I hope you're not reading that as I'm in anyway excusing the failure of the catholic church for not allowing justice to be done on the perpetrators. Because I am certainly not.

Even if these people truly were convicted by the Holy Spirit and earnestly repented (which, by the way doesn't just mean saying you're sorry), God would forgive them as he would any of us but that doesn't mean he would expect you to avoid justice in this life. Keep in mind, he even allows some of that justice to include the death penalty...(which I would contend some of these priests would qualify for).

I'm just thinking... I don't think the parents and people around these horrifically sexually abused children are taking solace in the fact that the church is covering for these pedophiles, prolonging their time (with which to continue abusing), and not (or barely) punishing them for it.

People want to see justice. Real justice. Immediate and swift.

Not drawn out... unreported... kept quiet... and ignored.

Not everyone buys into "God's punishment". They don't see or feel that justice. They want to see a pedophile locked up behind bars for life. The church is seemingly keeping that from happening... taking the sides of the pedophiles instead of the raped kids.

If they're justifying this as... "Oh we gotta keep this under wraps or else we'll look really bad."... that's ****ed up.

 

[breakingcontact]

I hope you're not reading that as I'm in anyway excusing the failure of the catholic church for not allowing justice to be done on the perpetrators. Because I am certainly not.

Even if these people truly were convicted by the Holy Spirit and earnestly repented (which, by the way doesn't just mean saying you're sorry), God would forgive them as he would any of us but that doesn't mean he would expect you to avoid justice in this life. Keep in mind, he even allows some of that justice to include the death penalty...(which I would contend some of these priests would qualify for).

Well said.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

An addendum to my post on the previous page... I hope I'm not coming off as an anti-religion sort of person. That's not what I am, I assure you.

I posted the story because it's breaking news today, and this is the relevant thread for it.

My comments, too... are coming from someone that isn't as devout as many of you are... so I'm trying to offer the perspective of the common non-religious person with regards to how these offenders are viewed.

 

[Dead Duck]

An addendum to my post on the previous page... I hope I'm not coming off as an anti-religion sort of person. That's not what I am, I assure you.

I posted the story because it's breaking news today, and this is the relevant thread for it.

My comments, too... are coming from someone that isn't as devout as many of you are... so I'm trying to offer the perspective of the common non-religious person with regards to how these offenders are viewed.

Understood.
We as a people shouldn't be looking the other way regardless of the religion. This is the correct argument for the "Think of the Children" phrase that gets misused so often.

You're all good.

 

[Dead Duck]

.....Now back to our thread.....




Hang the Gentiles by their Genitals.

 

[T.Lex]

Heya G - can you confirm something for me about the timeframes? I haven't been able to bring myself to read the report yet, but my understanding is that it goes back several generations.

This is not a defense of what happened, but the post upthread that mentioned a "purge" plays into this. After the Boston reporting, the expectation was among the congregation (at least, the parts I'm familiar with) was that such a purge did or would happen. Not in front of cameras, but administratively. This was not to be tolerated. There have been examples since then that I am familiar with where criminal conduct was reported and prosecuted with the parish/diocese cooperation.

To the extent the Pennsylvania Catholic administration didn't get that memo, then further... remedial... steps absolutely must be taken. At every appropriate level.

To the extent that such things happened before the Boston investigations, then it is still unforgivable (or nearly so), but that such things weren't known. As a body, we just didn't know.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Why would anyone choose to associate with people that rape children and believe they will still be welcomed into God's promised land? Why believe in a god that answers the prayers of a pedophile over the prayers of a tortured child? Why believe in any of it? You're damned right this is going to create Atheists.

The emperor has no clothes, and events like this make it ever harder to deny it.

I don't know if you meant the question for just Catholics, but I'll answer from my perspective.

Jesus was betrayed by Judas, betrayal by a loved and trusted associate isn't new. Mohammed was pelted with stones, his uncle was murdered and his corpse was mutilated, his wife was slandered, and while when he held power over the perpetrators, he forgave them. I don't expect God to be Santa or to live a trouble-free life. I do not expect prayer to deflect a bullet meant for me, divert a drunk driver from my wife, etc. Believers of all religions have suffered unjustly, some it drives away and others it drives deeper into their belief.

Faith doesn't protect me from physical harm. It protects me from spiritual harm. If I hate someone, they still hold power over me. My hatred doesn't affect them one iota, but it poisons me. Forgiveness is a difficult task for humans, but God is the most merciful and the most forgiving per the Quran. I don't understand the Catholic tradition of confession, so I can't begin to comment there, but "to err is human, to forgive divine". When we can forgive those who have done us harm, we are closer to God because God is forgiveness. We trust God to know who is repentant, and while the ability to inflict Earthly punishment in kind with the transgression was left in Earthly hands, God chooses the ultimate punishment, which is time in Hell.

I'd note that in Islam Hell is not eternal (although some would disagree with me, but Mohammed said Hell would eventually be empty himself, so I suspect those who disagree are wrong). It is a sort of punishment and purification. Everyone, upon repentance and the mercy of God, will eventually attain the gift of heaven. The direct earthly analogy is hatred. Like I said earlier, hatred hurts the person who hates, not the hated. Forgiveness brings peace. While of course it's not a simple thing, I'm sure everyone here can think of some slight, great or small, they held onto tightly and then released. That freeing feeling that came with releasing the hatred and blame through forgiveness, that's being closer to God.

People want to see justice. Real justice. Immediate and swift.

Not drawn out... unreported... kept quiet... and ignored.

Not everyone buys into "God's punishment". They don't see or feel that justice.

Note that one can both forgive and punish. We do it with our children all the time. Forgiveness doesn't mean you don't correct the behavior. I'm 100% in favor of the death penalty for child rapists. I also freely admit I am not to the point I can forgive them for their crimes.

Man's justice/punishment and God's justice/punishment are not mutually exclusive, and the realm of Earthly justice was left to us.

 

[T.Lex]

BBI-

That is interesting about Hell emptying itself. It sounds analogous to Catholic purgatory. We are taught that if we find ourselves in purgatory (and we probably will), that's a good thing. It means we'll make it to Heaven after atoning for our sins.

PaulF-

I'm not ignoring your post; I'm avoiding it. For now.

I want to be able to thoughtfully formulate my response, while hoping that someone else does it first.

 

[JettaKnight]

BBI-

That is interesting about Hell emptying itself. It sounds analogous to Catholic purgatory. We are taught that if we find ourselves in purgatory (and we probably will), that's a good thing. It means we'll make it to Heaven after atoning for our sins.

There is an alternate Christian doctrine from hell being "eternal constant torment", know as the annihilation view.

PaulF-

I'm not ignoring your post; I'm avoiding it. For now.

I want to be able to thoughtfully formulate my response, while hoping that someone else does it first.

Yeah, I'm not the best at forming responses to questions like that - I can be pretty hard and analytical.

Like, "why does God let children die?"
My answer is, "OK, what age should God allow death?" and "For children under that age, are they invincible?"

Logical, but cold.



As for worshiping a God that would forgive a child rapist, that means God is willing to forgive you and me, too.



Is the RCC willing to have a discussion, "Hey, maybe forcing men to constantly suppress sexual urges, despite the Apostle Paul's prescription to get married, might be a bad thing, and quite possibly anti-Biblical?"

If the argument is, "Well, if they're married they won't be able to devote enough time and energy." Then I say just do away with all that confessional nonsense - that'll free up their time.

 

[T.Lex]

Is the RCC willing to have a discussion, "Hey, maybe forcing men to constantly suppress sexual urges, despite the Apostle Paul's prescription to get married, might be a bad thing, and quite possibly anti-Biblical?"

Every generation. And that's not really an exaggeration.

But, I find that idea disturbing, in a sense. It suggests that EVERY man is capable of being a child rapist if they aren't getting... relief.

If it were up to me, I don't think I'd set it up that way, but we are where we are. The VAST majority of priests don't have an issue with it. In fact, the most ardent supporters of the practice are the priests.

If the argument is, "Well, if they're married they won't be able to devote enough time and energy." Then I say just do away with all that confessional nonsense - that'll free up their time.

 

[JettaKnight]

The bushel basket (i.e. number of priest globally) is vast, so the number of bad apples... statistics and all.



I guess my line of thinking was more like, almost all Protestant pastors are married, and if one wasn't... well... I'd have a little voice in the back of my head about that one.

Does that make sense? In other words, it's pretty easy for a predator to blend in when they're all forced to be unmarried.