CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[foszoe]

What makes you think I am not?

I did not use a single second person personal pronoun because I wasn't even thinking of you I guess I was thinking of the question or is it just a general question are you saying you're wondering this about yourself

 

[BugI02]

No. It was an inexact formulation, I was referring more to testing knowledge/belief against "someone they hold in high esteem as a Christian"

I had forgotten just how careful those will be that they not lead others into error

ETA: Not gonna' go all Koresh on you

 

[T.Lex]

I am musing on how "the man of the hour" always seems to be waiting in the wings in history's darkest times

I don't think it's a coincidence

I agree with that, sorta.

I do think there are times that God's path for some people put them where they are supposed to be to have opportunities to help build His kingdom/give glory to Him. Or to receive His discipline.

When it comes to historical figures of great power, at least post-Renaissance, one must be very careful to assess to what extent they were following their own earthly desires for power, fortune or fame. (Or all three.)

The rise of evil creates opportunities for rival evil, too.

Of course, full disclosure on my own view: only very rare people are completely evil or completely good. (Chaotic evil/Lawful good for you, GPiashfhfughgnuy.) So, someone who might succumb to temptations in one area of their life, but be repentant and dedicated to Christ, might still walk the "right" path at important moments.

That latter part might fit into your view of Wellington, for instance.

Generally, though, the less mindful of Christ someone is, the less likely they are to walk the proper path at the important moments.

There is no clear answer. At least not in this life.

(Just to be clear, this is NOT a discussion of salvation/works. Rather, it is about the likelihood of someone doing God's will in any particular decision.)

 

[breakingcontact]

If it's a misery it probably wasn't done right to begin with

It should however be a sacrifice, a willing sacrifice to each other....if it isn't it will become a misery.

Marriage is a good thing.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Listening to a podcast today. One of the primary members (Catholic) is talking about his wife going through the cult-deprogramming stuff with regards to formerly being Mormon.

I may have asked this before... but do you non-Mormon religious-types here view Mormonism as a cult?

 

[T.Lex]

Personally, I do not see it as a cult.

I will readily concede that the line between "cult" and "organized religion" can be blurry. The US Bureau of Prisons has wrestled - and litigated - about this kind of definitional issue for a couple generations.

Regardless, that means I can't really articulate the distinction other than certain dogmatic elements. Circles a date on the calendar for when the apocalypse will be? Probably a cult. Have to have sex with the leader? Probably a cult. Have to give all your money to the leader, who then apportions back what they deem to be enough to all the members? Probably a socialist cult.

Mostly, it is a "know it when I see it" kind of a thing.

 

[JettaKnight]

... but do you non-Mormon religious-types here view Mormonism as a cult?

I do.


Edit: On second thought...


I think T.Lex explains it better.



Actually, I see Mormonism to be pretty similar to Islam. Along comes a guy that claims to be a prophet, writes a book with a bunch more rules about attire and beverage choices, de-values women, downgrades the importance of Christ and his sacrifice.

Voilà!

 

[breakingcontact]

If it's a misery it probably wasn't done right to begin with

It should however be a sacrifice, a willing sacrifice to each other....if it isn't it will become a misery.

Listening to a podcast today. One of the primary members (Catholic) is talking about his wife going through the cult-deprogramming stuff with regards to formerly being Mormon.

I may have asked this before... but do you non-Mormon religious-types here view Mormonism as a cult?

Yes, by definition, due to their adoration of their "prophets".

The word "cult" has taken on a different meaning in modernity though.

 

[JettaKnight]

Yes, by definition, due to their adoration of their "prophets".

The word "cult" has taken on a different meaning in modernity though.

Is there adoration different than ours? I don't think they ever pray to Joseph Smith. They have Joseph Smith day, but (other) Christians have feast for our saints. They don't even name their building after people like us.

Of course, I'm trying to be objective here, so let's get past the, "they're wrong, we're right."

 

[T.Lex]

Adoration is not worship.

Granted, I do not know much about Mormonism, but my understanding is that they revere some... non-traditional prophets, but worship a variation of the Trinity.

Based on prior posts, I thought that was a defining element of Christianity to some?

 

[BugI02]

Wasn't JS given a piggy-back ride around the solar system by an "angel"

Aren't there gold tablets containing mysterious writing that few can read and only with the help of special tools (stones)

It seems to me "revealed truth" needs to actually, you know, be revealed. The lost tribes of Israel being here in America is a bit of a stretch, too (although not beyond possibility with divine help)

 

[foszoe]

This response to BugI02 was unnecessary and ill thought out.

When it comes to doing the will of God and the reply I sent , I felt a prick in the heart which I believed to be divine in origin as soon as I posted it. I wasn't listening to Him while I was composing it. It's tone wasn't right. It was sent in the car driving home from work using talk to type. I do know when it is not the will of God often by such things right away although others it might take time. I seldom if ever feel I AM doing the will of God. I don't get clangs of cymbals etc.

I ask forgiveness from the readers

I did not use a single second person personal pronoun because I wasn't even thinking of you I guess I was thinking of the question or is it just a general question are you saying you're wondering this about yourself

 

[T.Lex]

At the risk of interjecting my personal view between you and God's view, I think that prick in your heart was your 8th grade English teacher screaming about run on sentences and lack of punctuation.

Tone was the least of the problems with that post.

 

[BugI02]

At the risk of interjecting my personal view between you and God's view, I think that prick in your heart was your 8th grade English teacher screaming about run on sentences and lack of punctuation.

Tone was the least of the problems with that post.

View attachment 69259

 

[T.Lex]

Don't Mormons have the year of missionary service? They go out and do real good in a community or in the world?

Seems like that's not very cultish. Doing things for others. Treating people a certain way.

I confess my ignorance of Mormon dogma, though. Much of it probably sounds pretty crazy. Like stigmata-level stuff.

 

[JettaKnight]

Don't Mormons have the year of missionary service? They go out and do real good in a community or in the world?

Seems like that's not very cultish. Doing things for others. Treating people a certain way.

I confess my ignorance of Mormon dogma, though. Much of it probably sounds pretty crazy. Like stigmata-level stuff.

They do. Seems to me that makes it more cultish: Let's create a rule that our members have to spend a year recruiting others!

 

[foszoe]

Don't you mean evangelizing ??

They do. Seems to me that makes it more cultish: Let's create a rule that our members have to spend a year recruiting others!

 

[JettaKnight]

Wasn't JS given a piggy-back ride around the solar system by an "angel"

Aren't there gold tablets containing mysterious writing that few can read and only with the help of special tools (stones)

It seems to me "revealed truth" needs to actually, you know, be revealed. The lost tribes of Israel being here in America is a bit of a stretch, too (although not beyond possibility with divine help)

I believe the stones were lost. How conveeeeenient.

Adoration is not worship.

Granted, I do not know much about Mormonism, but my understanding is that they revere some... non-traditional prophets, but worship a variation of the Trinity.

Based on prior posts, I thought that was a defining element of Christianity to some?

That's typically their "sell": we're Christians just like you!


The problem is, they don't believe that Jesus Christ was fully God. The key is, Christ's sacrifice on Calvary wasn't enough in their doctrine.

From the LDS:

We believe Jesus is the Son of God the Father and as such inherited powers of godhood and divinity from His Father, including immortality, the capacity to live forever. While He walked the dusty road of Palestine as a man, He possessed the powers of a God and ministered as one having authority, including power over the elements and even power over life and death.

We do not believe that we can either overcome the flesh or gain eternal reward through our own unaided efforts. We must work to our limit and then rely upon the merits, mercy and grace of the Holy One of Israel to see us through the struggles of life and into life eternal (2 Nephi 31:19; Moroni 6:4). We believe that while human works are necessary— including exercising faith in Christ, repenting of our sins, receiving the sacraments or ordinances of salvation and rendering Christian service to our neighbors — they are not sufficient for salvation (2 Nephi 25:23; Moroni 10:32). We believe that our discipleship ought to be evident in the way we live our lives.

That right there is a non-starter. You can't say you're a Christian and in the next breath deny that Christ is God.

Also, note the phrase, "....the powers of a God..." In other words, they're polytheistic, but probably won't come right out and admit it.

 

[T.Lex]

That right there is a non-starter. You can't say you're a Christian and in the next breath deny that Christ is God.

First, I am personally very much aligned with you. For relatively obvious reasons, I accept the mystery of the Trinity.

Second, though, I think it important to say that the dogmatic question of whether they are Christian or not is different than whether they are a cult.

Buddhism isn't (last I checked) a Christian denomination. But, it is a religion. I don't think it is a cult.

Third, I'm not sure I really want to know who Nephi and Moroni are/were, but stripped down, I think there are some dogmatic elements that would be shared between Mormonism and other Christian flavors. I'm NOT saying the non-starter stuff isn't non-starter. I'm just saying that other parts look like a shared view. I don't care enough to do a deep dive, but comparing some of that to early Christian sects (heretics, probably), I wonder how much commonality there is.

 

[foszoe]

The biggest successful evangelization efforts for Orthodoxy have been Armenian, Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, and wait for it....Mormons. There are decent videos on Youtube and ancientfaith made by former mormons where there have been entire congregation conversions.

I believe the stones were lost. How conveeeeenient.



That's typically their "sell": we're Christians just like you!


The problem is, they don't believe that Jesus Christ was fully God. The key is, Christ's sacrifice on Calvary wasn't enough in their doctrine.

From the LDS:


That right there is a non-starter. You can't say you're a Christian and in the next breath deny that Christ is God.

Also, note the phrase, "....the powers of a God..." In other words, they're polytheistic, but probably won't come right out and admit it.