CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[GodFearinGunTotin]

It is my understanding that Mormons believe: Jesus and Satan are created brothers. That God wasn't always THE God. That we can become gods of our own planets someday. And as JK's post above alludes to, they don't believe in the trinity and that Jesus is not God.

Having said all of that, what few Mormons I know or know of are good people.

 

[foszoe]

ON a side note...I now miss the rep pyramids but wish they could be anonymous

That way I could go give rep to whomever and then rep actual posts elsewhere that REALLY deserve it. Can't wait till Aug 15th. Ugh that will cost me another trip to confession...

 

[JettaKnight]

The biggest successful evangelization efforts for Orthodoxy have been Armenian, Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, and wait for it....Mormons. There are decent videos on Youtube and ancientfaith made by former mormons where there have been entire congregation conversions.

Mormons converting to Orthodox? I think we can approve of that!

 

[ArcadiaGP]

I've never heard the "cult" comparison with a religion (aside from Scientology) as much as I have with Mormon.

Even leaving the Mormon faith is apparently a big deal... with the term "Ex-Mormon" being quite popular around places like Reddit. You don't really hear about "recovery forums" for ex-christian or ex-jewish.

Mormon seems to be a bit unique, in that way. It's actually sort of interesting how similar it is to scientology, in ways.

But it's probably like anything else... with casuals and extremes.

 

[foszoe]

In 1971, A professor at Brigham Young wrote about Eastern Orthodoxy and it is one of the most unbiased introductions to Orthodoxy. Remarkably good work.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/05/eastern-orthodoxy?lang=eng

Mormons converting to Orthodox? I think we can approve of that!

 

[foszoe]

Journey To Orthodoxy · The 'Welcome Home' Network

That website has conversion stories from several groups...Mormons are listed under polythiests along with Hindus, Pagans, and Wiccans

There is a section for non thiests: Agnostics, Athiests, and Buddhists

Other Monotheists: Jews, Muslims, Jehovah Witness, and Rastafarian

Other Christians: Including RC, Baptists, Anglican, Pentecostal, Evangelical and more...

Clergy

Mass Conversions

some good reading I have enjoyed anyway

 

[Hoosierdood]

It is my understanding that Mormons believe: Jesus and Satan are created brothers. That God wasn't always THE God. That we can become gods of our own planets someday. And as JK's post above alludes to, they don't believe in the trinity and that Jesus is not God.

Having said all of that, what few Mormons I know or know of are good people.

This is all true. Basic tenants of Mormonism...

1. The Book of Mormon was translated from 2 tablets that were apparently only available to one man, and then somehow "lost". This man had no linguistic background to help him translate the tablets, but Mormons are to believe that they were translated without error, and are equal in inspiration to the Holy Scriptures.

2. God the Father (this is important to know him as Father) was not always God. He was once a man as ordinary as you and I, living on a far away planet, and was able to ascend to Godhood. He was able to procreate with The Mother and have billions of "spirit babies". Those spirit babies are incarnated through us, making us spiritual beings. It is important to understand that Mormons will always refer to God as "The Father", and it has a completely different meaning than main line Christianity.

3. Through adherence to the teachings of the Mormon church, we can ascend to Godhood as well and rule our own universe. Basic requirements are somewhat sketchy, but must include 2 years of missionary service, you must be male, you must be married, and your marriage must be performed in the Mormon tabernacle in Salt Lake City This may have been changed to any Mormon Tabernacle). Those who do not attain Godhood but still follow the requirements may still be ushered into the "First Heaven" which is only reserved for Mormons. Those who are "good" Mormons, but are not able to complete the requirements, will be ushered into the "Second Heaven" which is obviously not as good as the first.

4. Revelation from God can still be given to the Mormon Priest, resulting in new or changing doctrine without any need for validation. In other words if the Priest claims to have new revelation from God, his word is treated as God's word. The most prolific example of this was when the IRS threatened to revoke the Mormon church's tax exempt status because they would not allow African American men to become priests. (Mormon teaching states that Africans are "Sons of Cain" and are marked by God) Shortly after, the Mormon church received a new revelation from God that black men could now become priests. Convenient.

5. There is no Trinity. Jesus was the brother of Satan, and they were the first of the "Spirit Babies". Jesus did in fact come to earth as a prophet, died, and ascended again to be with the Father. He later came back to earth to bring the message of how to ascend to Godhood to the American Native Indians. His message to them was recorded on the tablets that Joseph Smith translated. Then conveniently lost.


So YES, Mormonism is a cult. Some sects may not be as fundamental as others (sleeping with the leader, polygamy, etc), but at its core it denies almost every major Christian doctrine. They may use the same words as many Christians, but those words carry a completely different meaning to them. Their message is based on para-scriptural writings that cannot be verified.

 

[T.Lex]

So YES, Mormonism is a cult. Some sects may not be as fundamental as others (sleeping with the leader, polygamy, etc), but at its core it denies almost every major Christian doctrine. They may use the same words as many Christians, but those words carry a completely different meaning to them. Their message is based on para-scriptural writings that cannot be verified.

This will seem WAY more confrontational than I mean it, so I'm sorry for that.

Is something like Zoroastrianism a cult in your opinion? Or belief in the Roman gods? Or belief in the power of chiropractic?

I hate to keep pounding on this, but - as I understand the question - it isn't whether Mormonism has some f'd up beliefs. And not whether it is Christian.

It feels like you're answering those questions, then jumping to the "cult" part.

Maybe it is better to invite some of you to describe what "cult" means to you, so we can get some kind of working definition. Like, what are the attributes of a cult?

Sure - f'd up beliefs might be part of it. But that can't be the only thing to differentiate it from a religion.

For instance, if there's a group of people that believe the apocryphal books... ok. They might be heretics, but that doesn't make them cultists. I think.

 

[PaulF]

Religious beliefs, in general, look pretty ridiculous to those that don’t share the beliefs.

Have you ever stepped back to think what Christianity might sound like to someone completely unfamiliar with Christian culture?

The defining feature of a cult is reverence of an individual person (cult leader, saint, author, ETC...). LDS certainly started as a cult, but I would argue it has grown from personality-based to ideology-based. They’re a religion...and their beliefs are certainly odd by Christian standards. It can be both.

Heck. Christianity started as a cult.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Yeah, when I said "cult", I dunno... I didn't necessarily define it.

Actually this is sounding familiar, so I think I may have brought it up before. I only did today because the use of the term "deprogramming" used in relation to being an ex-Mormon.

I think when I previously asked this question, it was more along the lines of "Do you consider this a legitimate religion?"... which also turned into a subjective sort of thing.

 

[T.Lex]

Religious beliefs, in general, look pretty ridiculous to those that don’t share the beliefs.

Have you ever stepped back to think what Christianity might sound like to someone completely unfamiliar with Christian culture?

The defining feature of a cult is reverence of an individual person (cult leader, saint, author, ETC...). LDS certainly started as a cult, but I would argue it has grown from personality-based to ideology-based. They’re a religion...and their beliefs are certainly odd by Christian standards. It can be both.

Heck. Christianity started as a cult.

So... what you're saying is Judaism is a cult?

I think that's totally what you're saying.

 

[hog slayer]

Religious beliefs, in general, look pretty ridiculous to those that don’t share the beliefs.

Have you ever stepped back to think what Christianity might sound like to someone completely unfamiliar with Christian culture?

The defining feature of a cult is reverence of an individual person (cult leader, saint, author, ETC...). LDS certainly started as a cult, but I would argue it has grown from personality-based to ideology-based. They’re a religion...and their beliefs are certainly odd by Christian standards. It can be both.

Heck. Christianity started as a cult.

Christianity started as a cult? How so?

 

[Hoosierdood]

In my definition, (not original with me, but the best that I have come across) the term Cult would include ALL of these 3 descriptors.

1. Exclusive. They claim to be the ONLY ones with the truth. If you leave, your salvation is in danger.

2. Secretive. General teaching is available to all, but certain doctrines and teachings are only available to its members, sometimes after a vow of confidentiality.

3. Authoritative. A human leader expects total loyalty and obedience. Their word is equal to scripture.


Some groups may have 1 or 2 of those identifiers, but in my mind, all 3 must exist for it to be labeled a Cult.

 

[T.Lex]

Christianity started as a cult? How so?

A guy claiming to be a Jewish messiah calls Jews and gentiles alike to worship a set of dogma that is similar to, but not exactly the same as, the Jewish beliefs and says that the end times are near. Oh, with some symbolic (or not) ritualized cannibalism mixed in.

It is a small jump to think of a group like that as a cult.

 

[Hoosierdood]

Also, as a Baptist I can say without reservation that I have seen Baptist churches who have operated as a Cult. And I have not been shy about calling them that.

 

[T.Lex]

In my definition, (not original with me, but the best that I have come across) the term Cult would include ALL of these 3 descriptors.

1. Exclusive. They claim to be the ONLY ones with the truth. If you leave, your salvation is in danger.

2. Secretive. General teaching is available to all, but certain doctrines and teachings are only available to its members, sometimes after a vow of confidentiality.

3. Authoritative. A human leader expects total loyalty and obedience. Their word is equal to scripture.


Some groups may have 1 or 2 of those identifiers, but in my mind, all 3 must exist for it to be labeled a Cult.

That seems like a solid working definition.

With that, I don't think Mormonism meets #3, and maybe not #2.

 

[foszoe]

Orthodox Christianity is a cult.

To the strict Latinist, Orthodoxy is a cult. So there. Calling me a cultist is fine. If you call me one I will ask the same question as T Lex did then find what point of your definition don't fit me.

At that point it becomes a disagreement on terminology.

Then I politely suggest we use the word as defined and used originally or if I find nothing objectionable in the other person's usage I continue to talk about Jesus no harm no foul.

I do that with a lot of words. Grace, salvation...

Why won't people use them like the first Christians did and use them appropriately...

Hmm

Cults and Cultism in American Religion

 

[JettaKnight]

That seems like a solid working definition.

With that, I don't think Mormonism meets #3, and maybe not #2.

Try walking into a Mormon temple.

And isn't the head of the LDS church a prophet?

 

[T.Lex]

Try walking into a Mormon temple.

And isn't the head of the LDS church a prophet?

I have no experience with either. But try walking into the wrong Orthodox service.

The human-as-scripture gives me pause, obviously. When the pope speaks ex cathedra, that might apply. But, that's rare. He does alot of talking that doesn't necessarily interpret scripture in a binding way.

 

[T.Lex]

Posting about this here, just because I'm not sure there's an existing political thread where it fits.

Basically, China is cracking down on religions. Specifically, Christianity and Islam.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-45140551

Authorities wait for a mosque to be finished, then say it didn't have the requisite building permits and are going to tear it down.

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asi...China-s-heartland-face-government-suppression

Christians getting registered and generally harassed by government officials.