CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[T.Lex]

Fine I'll ask the important questions.

T.Lex.

What if a Catholic priest were to just bless the entire ocean?
Would it turn the entire thing into holy water, or do priests have an effective blessing range?
Does that range increase based on their level?
Can the Pope bless the entire ocean?

YOU - are not helping.

(But, next time I feel like causing trouble at the parish council meeting with one of our priests, I'll bring that up.)

ETA
Upon further reflection, I think one priest can bless an entire ocean, but the effect is diluted across the entire volume. So, the nominal blessedness quotient is only increased slightly. It would take a whole bunch of priests to have any measurable impact.

 

[breakingcontact]

I agree but have one question. Is sanctification separate from good (or not real good) works that will determine our rewards in heaven, or do they go hand in hand?

Personally I see sanctification being the same as the "works" we will be judged for (after justification) that will determine our heavenly rewards. Once we are justified, we become sanctified (set apart). But the process of sanctification is basically life long that evolves continuously.

Your thoughts?

I totally agree justification is through faith alone.

In sanctification, good works are done. Scripture indicates that these good works done, in sanctification, will relate to heavenly rewards.

 

[Dead Duck]

T.Lex.

What if a Catholic priest were to just bless the entire ocean?
Would it turn the entire thing into holy water, or do priests have an effective blessing range?
Does that range increase based on their level?
Can the Pope bless the entire ocean?

YOU - are not helping.

(But, next time I feel like causing trouble at the parish council meeting with one of our priests, I'll bring that up.)

ETA
Upon further reflection, I think one priest can bless an entire ocean, but the effect is diluted across the entire volume. So, the nominal blessedness quotient is only increased slightly. It would take a whole bunch of priests to have any measurable impact.

Why am I starting to hear videogame music?

 

[JettaKnight]

Why am I starting to hear videogame music?

I'm just imagining a whole row as far as the eye can see of priest standing ankle deep in the ocean with their vestments tucked up to keep from getting wet, all chanting in latin and waving their hands...

 

[T.Lex]

I'm just imagining a whole row as far as the eye can see of priest standing ankle deep in the ocean with their vestments tucked up to keep from getting wet, all chanting in latin and waving their hands...

We call that Spring Break.

 

[Ziggidy]

I will also readily concede that I first learned that with some different words in places. As a Catholic, I can tell you that there's a bureaucracy involved in changing anything. Even translations that have been around hundreds of years.

Thank you.

Your last statement is what I wonder about when it comes to anything outside of scripture. Yes, I understand even scripture has had its moments. I question man's bureaucracy when it comes to tradition / doctrine (not scriptural). How does one question its accuracy when in fact it changes according to mans current opinion/feeling.

Sort of like the constitution. It is what it is and says what it says. The 2nd amendment, for example, it's what it says it is - not open for wrongful interpretation. Man made tradition (not just catholicism) should not change with the seasons, but it does. God does not change, His word does not change - why does tradition / doctrine?

 

[T.Lex]

Thank you.

Your last statement is what I wonder about when it comes to anything outside of scripture. Yes, I understand even scripture has had its moments. I question man's bureaucracy when it comes to tradition / doctrine (not scriptural). How does one question its accuracy when in fact it changes according to mans current opinion/feeling.

Sort of like the constitution. It is what it is and says what it says. The 2nd amendment, for example, it's what it says it is - not open for wrongful interpretation. Man made tradition (not just catholicism) should not change with the seasons, but it does. God does not change, His word does not change - why does tradition / doctrine?

See, I don't think you really do understand. The bureaucracy is there to make sure that the doctrine is sound. Changing the English translation of our Creed is not a small thing. Even that is scrutinized to make sure that it is appropriate.

 

[Hoosierdood]

Basically all the extra Catholic stuff that I can't find in the bible. Why is it important if it's not in the bible?

Just a point of order here... this isn't just a Catholic thing. I will admit that I am no fan of Catholic tradition. But I was raised Baptist (still am), and I can say without a doubt that they are just as guilty (I refer to some as Bapti-Catholics). Don't get me wrong, I believe there is a time and place for tradition. Many traditions are good. My problem comes when we elevate Tradition nearly to the same level as Doctrine. Doctrine should be unchanging, and directly revealed in Scripture. Tradition deals with the METHOD of living out the Doctrine that is revealed. Sometimes we are hesitant to change how we do things because those METHODS have become sacred to us. That, IMO, is where lines get crossed.

 

[Ziggidy]

Just a point of order here... this isn't just a Catholic thing. I will admit that I am no fan of Catholic tradition. But I was raised Baptist (still am), and I can say without a doubt that they are just as guilty (I refer to some as Bapti-Catholics). Don't get me wrong, I believe there is a time and place for tradition. Many traditions are good. My problem comes when we elevate Tradition nearly to the same level as Doctrine. Doctrine should be unchanging, and directly revealed in Scripture. Tradition deals with the METHOD of living out the Doctrine that is revealed. Sometimes we are hesitant to change how we do things because those METHODS have become sacred to us. That, IMO, is where lines get crossed.

Very well stated...

 

[Ziggidy]

See, I don't think you really do understand. The bureaucracy is there to make sure that the doctrine is sound. Changing the English translation of our Creed is not a small thing. Even that is scrutinized to make sure that it is appropriate.

Maybe I don't or maybe I do not appreciate bureaucracy in the same manner you do.

Can you point me in the direction where I could see some of the changes that were made in the creed? And why?

 

[Dead Duck]

Just a point of order here... this isn't just a Catholic thing. I will admit that I am no fan of Catholic tradition. But I was raised Baptist (still am), and I can say without a doubt that they are just as guilty (I refer to some as Bapti-Catholics). Don't get me wrong, I believe there is a time and place for tradition. Many traditions are good. My problem comes when we elevate Tradition nearly to the same level as Doctrine. Doctrine should be unchanging, and directly revealed in Scripture. Tradition deals with the METHOD of living out the Doctrine that is revealed. Sometimes we are hesitant to change how we do things because those METHODS have become sacred to us. That, IMO, is where lines get crossed.

You're right.
I have "Picked Out" Catholics because they are (to me) the strictest on the totem pole while growing up. And because the atheist seem to be coming from them directly. (again - to me because of the ones I've known)

Strictest speaking, Baptists are up there with Lutherans not far behind. Depending on who you talk to, Presbyterians are on the bottom circling the bowl to hell as one of the least strict groups around.

That's me.

 

[T.Lex]

Maybe I don't or maybe I do not appreciate bureaucracy in the same manner you do.

Can you point me in the direction where I could see some of the changes that were made in the creed? And why?

Here's a good page that goes into some detail on the liturgical changes.

https://www.thoughtco.com/new-translation-of-the-catholic-mass-542947

Basically, the Vatican II council (and eek! if you want to talk about that) established some things that the church was going to work on. These liturgical changes went through cycles of drafting, amending, reviewing, discussing, contemplating, deciding, adopting and implementing.

Specific to the Nicene Creed, the ones that stand out (from memory) are (old) "one in being with the Father" to (new) "consubstantial with the Father." And (old) referring to the Holy Spirit "who is worshiped and glorified" became (new) "who is adored and glorified."

There are various translational issues that evolve across time and geography. My understanding is that these changes represent a better translation of the intent of the words in the early mass.

 

[BugI02]

I believe if we are to be honest with ourselves and each other, we will be respectfully open.

I believe, as many other christians, that placing "tradition" on an equal plane as Jesus, is wrong. Tradition, as I understand it, is man-made. Tradition has created rules and requirements for salvation that requires more than just faith in Christ. It also places unprecedented "honor" to humans (i.e. saints, Mary, pope....). Praying to the dead. A list of others that I do not agree with.

I respectfully do not agree with the catholic church, mormonism, lds or any other man made religion.

I do not mean to offend anyone, it's just my belief.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

*.*

 

[Ziggidy]

I believe that is a whole new topic of discussion.

 

[foszoe]

Here is a nice video that talks about Holy Water, Tradition, the Trinity, and Baptism. All topics that have been brought up in the last few pages....enjoy!

[video=youtube;CfKyKA8FtXQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfKyKA8FtXQ[/video]



The more fun videos...

Greek

[video=youtube;duKZ_ie-qBI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duKZ_ie-qBI[/video]




And the ever crazy Russians

[video=youtube;zaS9xQPDyg8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=18&v=zaS9xQPDyg8[/video]

 

[foszoe]

Perhaps a different tack.

This is what I profess every Sunday. (Ok, sometimes its Saturday.) (And it might be a weekday if its a Holy Day of Obligation.)

You are oh so close

Only 3 words off in English and one in Latin!

 

[foszoe]

Scripture is Tradition and Tradition is Scripture. They can't be separated.

Christians and Christianity from 33 AD until the 4th century survived without out a Bible BECAUSE they had tradition.

Thank you.

Your last statement is what I wonder about when it comes to anything outside of scripture. Yes, I understand even scripture has had its moments. I question man's bureaucracy when it comes to tradition / doctrine (not scriptural). How does one question its accuracy when in fact it changes according to mans current opinion/feeling.

Sort of like the constitution. It is what it is and says what it says. The 2nd amendment, for example, it's what it says it is - not open for wrongful interpretation. Man made tradition (not just catholicism) should not change with the seasons, but it does. God does not change, His word does not change - why does tradition / doctrine?

 

[Ziggidy]

Fine I'll ask the important questions.

T.Lex.

What if a Catholic priest were to just bless the entire ocean?
Would it turn the entire thing into holy water, or do priests have an effective blessing range?
Does that range increase based on their level?
Can the Pope bless the entire ocean?

I must tell you I have gone back to read this a few times, it is hysterical - makes me laugh every time.

I vision seminary students practicing on little puddles.....graduating to ponds, then small lakes......

Holy Mackerel!!!!!!

 

[Ziggidy]

Scripture is Tradition and Tradition is Scripture. They can't be separated.

Christians and Christianity from 33 AD until the 4th century survived without out a Bible BECAUSE they had tradition.

Traditions have changed; the Word of God has not.

Remember a time when I might go to hell if I ate meat on Friday, I had to refrain from eating / drinking 3 hours before communion......traditions have changed. Scripture has not.

 

[Hoosierdood]

Scripture is Tradition and Tradition is Scripture. They can't be separated.

In most Baptist churches, they use grape juice for Communion, and they pass out a small cup of it to each person. I have also been in churches where they have a loaf of bread and a large goblet of juice to dip the bread and the people form a line. Which tradition is scriptural?

Christians and Christianity from 33 AD until the 4th century survived without out a Bible BECAUSE they had tradition.

The difference is that we DO have the Bible.