CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[T.Lex]

I believe if we are to be honest with ourselves and each other, we will be respectfully open.

I believe, as many other christians, that placing "tradition" on an equal plane as Jesus, is wrong. Tradition, as I understand it, is man-made. Tradition has created rules and requirements for salvation that requires more than just faith in Christ. It also places unprecedented "honor" to humans (i.e. saints, Mary, pope....). Praying to the dead. A list of others that I do not agree with.

I respectfully do not agree with the catholic church, mormonism, lds or any other man made religion.

I do not mean to offend anyone, it's just my belief.

Hmmm. Ok, I'll take all that at face value.

If we are to have an open, (relatively) inoffensive discussion, it will be important to listen/read honestly. The assertion that the Catholic church elevates "tradition" to a place above Jesus's teachings is just wrong. That is not what I said. That is not what I meant. That is not what Catholic tradition is. (And I'll include Orthodoxy in that.)

Rather, the Apostles received Christ's teachings directly. They, while not equivalent to Christ by any means, delivered that teaching to people across a wide geographic area. Indeed, at the Ascension, the Bible was opened to them so that they understood. That made them uniquely qualified to profess Jesus's teachings.

In the Catholic sense, "tradition" is not man-made any more than the epistles of Paul were.

I guess it makes sense to clear up some baseline kinds of things if we are to progress.

 

[Ziggidy]

Ironically, your statement involves tradition as well. Tradition does not necessarily conflict with what Jesus taught, which must be so since all scripture regarding Jesus' life and teaching did not exist until after his earthly ministry, and so scripture itself was based upon the experience and memory of the disciples, and thus tradition.

The question that comes in then is what tradition do you accept? As you obviously accept some form of tradition. At what point in time did that tradition come into being? During the time of Christ, or 1400 years later?

Why did I believe this would happen?

I hate answering a question with a question, but I feel we need to both understand each other before an answer could be provided (if one can be at all)

When I speak of tradition, I am speaking of so called "sacred" tradition and sacred "scripture" (I believe as the CC puts it). I do not believe in sacred tradition; I only believe in sacred scripture as my means for salvation.

Now, you said my statement involves tradition. How so?

I will add that I believe that scripture is God inspired and that tradition is man inspired.

 

[Dead Duck]

Tradition.
I like that. Traditions straight from the bible sound promising but why did man then decide to keep adding to them? To help followers walk the correct path maybe? OK, but then there's the Catholic traditions. I was raised knowing that the Catholic church was more strict than the others but dang, they had so many rules and things to do and memorize and repeat and etc....

Why would man add all these things, rules and traditions if they didn't originate from the good book?

 

[T.Lex]

Tradition.
I like that. Traditions straight the bible sound promising but why did man then decide to keep adding to them? To help followers walk the correct path maybe? OK, but then there's the Catholic traditions. I was raised knowing that the Catholic church was more strict than the others but dang, they had so many rules and things to do and memorize and repeat and etc....

Why would man add all these things rules and traditions if they didn't originate from the good book?

Because they did.

 

[T.Lex]

Sorry for the double-post, but I think it is important to clarify that most of the issues that most people have with Catholicism are (putting the best foot forward) based on a contemporary filter of basic teachings.

And, I'll be honest, foszoe does a MUCH better job of explaining some of this.

The anti-Catholic propaganda has been around for centuries now. Some of it intentionally misinterpreting, then accepted, and then passed down, but I tend to think most of it nowadays is just based on ignorance.

Let's really try to keep an open mind and discuss these things. (Not really talking to those who've been in these threads for awhile.)

 

[JettaKnight]

Stirring it up: Tradition is why we meet on Sundays mornings.

Why would man add all these things, rules and traditions if they didn't originate from the good book?

Political machinations of the dark and medieval ages.

 

[Ziggidy]

Hmmm. Ok, I'll take all that at face value.

If we are to have an open, (relatively) inoffensive discussion, it will be important to listen/read honestly. The assertion that the Catholic church elevates "tradition" to a place above Jesus's teachings is just wrong. That is not what I said. That is not what I meant. That is not what Catholic tradition is. (And I'll include Orthodoxy in that.)

Rather, the Apostles received Christ's teachings directly. They, while not equivalent to Christ by any means, delivered that teaching to people across a wide geographic area. Indeed, at the Ascension, the Bible was opened to them so that they understood. That made them uniquely qualified to profess Jesus's teachings.

In the Catholic sense, "tradition" is not man-made any more than the epistles of Paul were.

I guess it makes sense to clear up some baseline kinds of things if we are to progress.

Let me ask a bizarre question. Do christians and muslims worship (believe in) the same God?

 

[Ziggidy]

I'm going to back out of this discussion, simply because I do not want to offend anyone and really like this site. I will simply agree that we disagree on this topic.

 

[T.Lex]

Stirring it up: Tradition is why we meet on Sundays mornings.



Political machinations of the dark and medieval ages.

Personally, I've always been interested in the correlation of some doctrinal developments and certain political issues.

 

[T.Lex]

Let me ask a bizarre question. Do christians and muslims worship (believe in) the same God?

I'm going to back out of this discussion, simply because I do not want to offend anyone and really like this site. I will simply agree that we disagree on this topic.

I think if we can keep an open mind about each other's ideas, then there shouldn't be a problem.

In terms of the former question, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are linked forever. Personally, yes - I do suspect it is the same God. Are the differences between them enough to make the difference between Heaven and not-Heaven in the afterlife? Probably.

But maybe not.

 

[Dead Duck]

Sorry for the double-post, but I think it is important to clarify that most of the issues that most people have with Catholicism are (putting the best foot forward) based on a contemporary filter of basic teachings.

And, I'll be honest, foszoe does a MUCH better job of explaining some of this.

The anti-Catholic propaganda has been around for centuries now. Some of it intentionally misinterpreting, then accepted, and then passed down, but I tend to think most of it nowadays is just based on ignorance.

Let's really try to keep an open mind and discuss these things. (Not really talking to those who've been in these threads for awhile.)

This I have never heard of.... unless you are referring to the alter boy stuff but how can that be propaganda unless it never happened.

 

[Ziggidy]

I think if we can keep an open mind about each other's ideas, then there shouldn't be a problem.

In terms of the former question, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are linked forever. Personally, yes - I do suspect it is the same God. Are the differences between them enough to make the difference between Heaven and not-Heaven in the afterlife? Probably.

But maybe not.

Think about this. We believe in the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That is who God is, correct?

Does Judaism believe Jesus is God? They believe in the Trinity?

Does Islam believe Jesus is God? They believe in the Trinity?

If they do not, then how is it the same God we worship, believe in? Who is right and who is wrong?

(not a trick question)

 

[Dead Duck]

Think about this. We believe in the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That is who God is, correct?

Does Judaism believe Jesus is God? They believe in the Trinity?

Does Islam believe Jesus is God? They believe in the Trinity?

If they do not, then how is it the same God we worship, believe in? Who is right and who is wrong?

(not a trick question)

You got me there.
Judaism as in Orthodox Jews, I don't see any of that in the bible or Islam for that matter. 72 virgins? I must have skipped that chapter.

 

[T.Lex]

This I have never heard of.... unless you are referring to the alter boy stuff but how can that be propaganda unless it never happened.

Really?

You've really never heard of anti-Catholic stuff, but ask about why the Catholic church built up traditions? Ok, maybe chalk that up to ignorance of where Catholic tradition does come from.

Think about this. We believe in the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That is who God is, correct?

Does Judaism believe Jesus is God? They believe in the Trinity?

Does Islam believe Jesus is God? They believe in the Trinity?

If they do not, then how is it the same God we worship, believe in? Who is right and who is wrong?

(not a trick question)

I believe in one God. We probably both do. Yet, the word "trinity" (or even the Greek word for it) does not appear in the Bible. So, is that non-biblical?

Taking your questions out of order, Jesus was Jewish, no? His Father was/is the God of the Jews. If we believe in one God, how is that not the same God?

Islam is certainly a sticky wicket on that count. Depending on which branch, Jesus is revered as a prophet but they - like the Jews - generally believe God to be indivisible. Thus, they reject the concept of the trinity (and, frankly, some consider it polytheism). I don't think it can be disputed, though, that their faith goes back to Judaism.

I accept that the actual structure of the Trinity is a mystery of faith. I believe I know who is right and who is wrong. I accept that we won't really know for sure until it is too late to tell anyone here on earth what we've learned.

 

[JettaKnight]

This I have never heard of.... unless you are referring to the alter boy stuff but how can that be propaganda unless it never happened.

I think he's referring to the whole protestant kerfuffle. In another twenty years or so I'm sure that "sola" fake news nonsense will go away.





PS - Let's try to remember T.Lex is outnumbered here by a good deal and cut him some slack.

 

[T.Lex]

I think he's referring to the whole protestant kerfuffle. In another twenty years or so I'm sure that "sola" fake news nonsense will go away.

"This sola thing will totally blow over in a few years" said every Pope since Martin Luther.

PS - Let's try to remember T.Lex is outnumbered here by a good deal and cut him some slack.

Which doesn't really bother me, but I probably should apologize if I come across as touchy about some of these things. I need to do a better job of making sure I'm coming at this with an open mind, too.

 

[Ziggidy]

Really?

You've really never heard of anti-Catholic stuff, but ask about why the Catholic church built up traditions? Ok, maybe chalk that up to ignorance of where Catholic tradition does come from.



I believe in one God. We probably both do. Yet, the word "trinity" (or even the Greek word for it) does not appear in the Bible. So, is that non-biblical?

Taking your questions out of order, Jesus was Jewish, no? His Father was/is the God of the Jews. If we believe in one God, how is that not the same God?

Islam is certainly a sticky wicket on that count. Depending on which branch, Jesus is revered as a prophet but they - like the Jews - generally believe God to be indivisible. Thus, they reject the concept of the trinity (and, frankly, some consider it polytheism). I don't think it can be disputed, though, that their faith goes back to Judaism.

I accept that the actual structure of the Trinity is a mystery of faith. I believe I know who is right and who is wrong. I accept that we won't really know for sure until it is too late to tell anyone here on earth what we've learned.

One needs to take a stand for what they believe is true. Is Jesus God? How you answer that should put everything else to rest. Father, Son, Holy Spirit - all one? Sure it's a mystery, but it IS biblical.

Jews do not believe Jesus is God, nor do Muslims - it's a fact. If they do not believe Jesus is God, then they do not believe that the God we worship/believe in. Simple.

Put another way, do YOU believe in the same god as the Jews and Muslims? Remember,they do not believe Jesus is God.

Would YOU, who believes Jesus is God, tell a Muslim or Jew that you worship the same god as they do? That we all worship the same God? Knowing they do not believe Jesus Christ is God?

( I am assuming you are Christian)

 

[Ziggidy]

but I probably should apologize if I come across as touchy about some of these things. I need to do a better job of making sure I'm coming at this with an open mind, too.

I can relate to that statement......I hope I am not crossing that line - not my intent.

 

[Dead Duck]

Really?

You've really never heard of anti-Catholic stuff, but ask about why the Catholic church built up traditions? Ok, maybe chalk that up to ignorance of where Catholic tradition does come from.

I got nuthin.
I do hear blame on Catholics for "The Crusades" with all the muslim slaughtering but I've also learned other angles of that one. Or maybe the torture chambers in the old church dungeons? I've seen a lot of old movies.

 

[Ziggidy]

kerfuffle

I like that word....it's fun to say!