CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[breakingcontact]

I'm looking for discussion.

I'm finding hostile arguments.

Need to figure out a more productive way to interact with fellow believers here.

 

[breakingcontact]

What is biblical law on murder?

(Just picking up the thread related to my post....)

I'm inviting you to share your view of who gets to decide what is just an unjust when it comes to secular laws.

Here's an example. Some Catholics view the death penalty as an unjust law. They state, and I believe them, that as a juror they would never act to sentence someone to death. That's a perfectly moral position, supporting action. But, in the real world, during jury selection, they will be asked if they believe that. If they answer honestly, the will not get the chance to be on the jury. They would have to be dishonest in answering that question to even have the opportunity to act in concert with their moral position.

But that's an individual choice.

So I'm inviting you to provide your insight on whether it is an individual choice or something more organized.

 

[T.Lex]

What is biblical law on murder?

Not simple.

These aren't really hostile arguments, though. It feels like you are asking questions to provoke discussion, but not responding with open discussion. Thus, it feels one-sided.

Some of us have already carved out this kind of territory. I kinda know where JettaKnight stands on some of this, so I don't really need to ask him (or her). But, I don't know your position the same way. That's why we are inviting you into the discussion, with the hope that it will be mutually constructive.

 

[rvb]

Are you familiar with the Magdeburg Confession?

The author .... also mixes some things up, trying to use forced sterilization of Christians a parallel to allowing gay marriage in Alabama.

yea, these examples are of religious persecution; If a government entity says you cannot practice your religion or tries to kill members of your religion out, then yes, religious leaders absolutely should stand up, stand together, and hold to their beliefs by resisting a law forcing a religious change. This is Paul in prison, or the 3 jews in Nebuchadnezzar's furnace, or Daniel in the Lion's den. This is also protected by our constitution.

Otherwise, I agree that "resisting" law, such as in the example of the lady who wouldn't do her job and sign marriage certificates, isn't going to help the cause in the long run. It's like the guys with ARs in Starbucks making everyone uncomfortable while they try to make a statement. It doesn't convert anyone. It makes non gun-owners look at all gun owners with a raised eyebrow...

Churches need to be wiling to state their beliefs, and love all in their communities.

We just started a series on the armor of God in Ephesians 6. Don't fight against the flesh and blood but through faith and truth and prayer and the Word of God we can stand firm against evil... and not let it corrupt our Church...
... because we are wearing the armor of God doesn't mean we should go raiding our communities. it is defensive armor.

-rvb

 

[JettaKnight]

I'm looking for discussion.

I'm finding hostile arguments.

Need to figure out a more productive way to interact with fellow believers here.

Sorry, I'm really not trying to be hostile and I apologize if I some that way.


I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not saying the author is a bad guy, I'm not saying I'm right.
I'd say my stance on this issue is "squishy", hence my warnings as it's easy for this sort of thing to go sideways on you.



It's just that most of your posts are two or three short sentences, and T.Lex and I would really like you to expand upon them if you're really up for discussing this.

You've asked some questions:

Who here calls themselves a "prolifer"?

How about "abortion abolitionist"?

(Note: I thought you were asking who's a "profiler" instead of "pro-lifer")
The answer is all of us in this discussion are much so. You'll find that those of us who discuss Christianity would be regarded as conservative and Gospel-centered.


But haven't offered up a lot of answer... not to complain, but maybe you're on a smartphone instead of at a desk where you should be doing debugging software that's week late....

I kinda know where JettaKnight stands on some of this, so I don't really need to ask him (or her).

I get no respect, I tell you.


Breakingcontact, you told me, "You're filling in a lot of gaps incorrectly." I'm really interested to hear where you think I'm wrong.

 

[rvb]

I'm looking for discussion.

I'm finding hostile arguments.

Need to figure out a more productive way to interact with fellow believers here.

I haven't seen anything that looked hostile to me; it appears you've generated a discussion...
don't be surprised people are trying to better understand your point or might have differing opinions...

-rvb

 

[T.Lex]

I'll follow up one angle on this, since we're in the "general religious" thread... secular laws allowing abortion probably don't "require" any particular action by Christians. Except not to get abortions.

Sodom and Gamorrah had some of God's people as their citizens. Those people sought to live a virtuous life, even surrounded by sinfulness - allowed by the local authorities (perhaps even encouraged by them). God had His own plan for those who participated.

Jesus recognized corruption, and took some steps to correct those behaviors (mostly corruption within His religion) but mostly ignored the secular corruption. In fact, in the context of the times, His message was to focus on one's own self. (Paraphrasing, and of course, simplifying.)

 

[rvb]

I'll follow up one angle on this, since we're in the "general religious" thread... secular laws allowing abortion probably don't "require" any particular action by Christians. Except not to get abortions.

... and action can still be taken to resist, without resisting the law itself.

for instance: Our church works with an organization that provides an ultra-sound to expectant mothers, provides pre-natal care assistance, and educates on alternatives such as adoption or assistance available to them should they keep the baby.

-rvb

 

[JettaKnight]

At this point it's not the Fed. Govt. that's the problem - it's society.

Now that Michelle Wolf has has a parade to celebrate the virtues of abortion on her Netflix show... (skip to end if you don't want to be thoroughly outraged).

I remember hearing Rush Limbaugh say that liberals don't just want access to abortion, they want it celebrated... well, I thought that was hyperbole...

 

[JettaKnight]

... and action can still be taken to resist, without resisting the law itself.

for instance: Our church works with an organization that provides an ultra-sound to expectant mothers, provides pre-natal care assistance, and educates on alternatives such as adoption or assistance available to them should they keep the baby.

-rvb

Pfft. Sissies. We just dox all those abortionists.
Seriously though, I think organizations like the Hope Center do great work.


Before you start looking way to defy, have you employed all the way to love?

 

[T.Lex]

Indeed.

Now, if someone feels called to minister in a certain way - including, frankly, getting arrested while chaining themselves to the door of an abortion clinic - it is not for me to say whether that is "right" or not. I must trust that they feel called to do that. God calls us in different ways.

I am even open to the notion that God may call some to do non-legal things. At the same time, it might also be part of God's plan for others to be called to hold them secularly responsible for those actions. Judas comes to mind as someone called to do something that most of us (rightly or wrongly) think was wrong.

God is not required to conform to our comprehension.

 

[indiucky]

https://babylonbee.com/news/ruth-bader-ginsburg-encased-in-carbonite-until-next-court-session/

 

[T.Lex]

Babylon Bee with a Star Wars reference?

Proof that there is a God who loves us.

 

[historian]

Jumping in late because I've been busy.

Slavery was a moral stain on British Society. Guess who ended slavery in the British EMPIRE (not just the Island, but all the way from The Bahamas to India. It wasn't a group of radical abolitionists. It was a Christian, elected to government, who consistently held his belief and convinced fellow MPs of the moral stain of slavery. Eventually, he managed to convince enough of them that they passed a little bill that ended slavery. Wilberforce began working on his bill in 1786. It passed in 1833. That is what supporting Christian belief in public can do. But it isn't the easy things, like Kim Davis being a loudmouth. It is convincing others of the rightness of your cause.

As for Kim, if she believed that she could not do her duty while maintaining her conscience, she had other options than refusal. She could have had an assistant do the paperwork, or she could have resigned. Instead, she wanted to be a celebrity, not really further the Banner of Christ.

 

[JettaKnight]

Jumping in late because I've been busy.

Slavery was a moral stain on British Society. Guess who ended slavery in the British EMPIRE (not just the Island, but all the way from The Bahamas to India. It wasn't a group of radical abolitionists. It was a Christian, elected to government, who consistently held his belief and convinced fellow MPs of the moral stain of slavery. Eventually, he managed to convince enough of them that they passed a little bill that ended slavery. Wilberforce began working on his bill in 1786. It passed in 1833. That is what supporting Christian belief in public can do. But it isn't the easy things, like Kim Davis being a loudmouth. It is convincing others of the rightness of your cause.

As for Kim, if she believed that she could not do her duty while maintaining her conscience, she had other options than refusal. She could have had an assistant do the paperwork, or she could have resigned. Instead, she wanted to be a celebrity, not really further the Banner of Christ.

Anyone who hasn't seen it, go see Amazing Grace, a bio-pic on Wilberforce. (you'll thank me)

 

[breakingcontact]

What Christian faith traditions (denomination etc) are represented here?

 

[T.Lex]

What Christian faith traditions (denomination etc) are represented here?

Almost all of them, I think - but I don't really keep track.

But... uh... would that make a difference to you?

 

[breakingcontact]

Make a difference to me?

Yes it helps me better understand things said here.

Almost all of them, I think - but I don't really keep track.

But... uh... would that make a difference to you?

 

[JettaKnight]

What Christian faith traditions (denomination etc) are represented here?

I'm Reformed Baptist (with a strong affinity for SBC), ChristianPatriot is (probably closest to) Free Will Baptist, Historian is Baptist, HoughMade is Baptist... I forget about RVB, might be Baptist, too...





Foszoe lurks, and he's Eastern Orthodox. PaulF is atheist. CameraMonkey is UMC. T.Lex is RCC.

Indiucky follows some Jewish carpenter who always wears sandals....

 

[breakingcontact]

Thanks for the breakdown.

Looks like Baptist and other.

JettaKnight, to which confession does your church adhere?

I'm Reformed Baptist (with a strong affinity for SBC), ChristianPatriot is (probably closest to) Free Will Baptist, Historian is Baptist, HoughMade is Baptist... I forget about RVB, might be Baptist, too...





Foszoe lurks, and he's Eastern Orthodox. PaulF is atheist. CameraMonkey is UMC. T.Lex is RCC.

Indiucky follows some Jewish carpenter who always wears sandals....