CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: General Religious Discussion...

[T.Lex]

Like a Latin moth to a holy flame....

 

[breakingcontact]

He's a good man with a wonderful testimony who I personally know.

The overall point of the book is we are to obey the government which God has installed over us however their are biblical and historical instances of defying unjust government.

Additionally how this is so powerful is it lays out how we do this. It isn't just everyone for himself.

We are to rally the magistrates to stand in the gap.

Imagine politicians emboldened by Christians to refuse to enact or enforce unjust laws.

 

[breakingcontact]

I know a good many Christians who don't acknowledge the US Constitution as it is not a Christian form of government.

 

[T.Lex]

He's a good man with a wonderful testimony who I personally know.

The overall point of the book is we are to obey the government which God has installed over us however their are biblical and historical instances of defying unjust government.

Additionally how this is so powerful is it lays out how we do this. It isn't just everyone for himself.

We are to rally the magistrates to stand in the gap.

Imagine politicians emboldened by Christians to refuse to enact or enforce unjust laws.

[cue totally whimsical background music]
Out of curiosity, is it up to the individual Christians or a pastor or something to determine which laws are "unjust"?

It seems to make sense that there'd need to be a process for reaching that conclusion.

 

[JettaKnight]

He's a good man with a wonderful testimony who I personally know.

Of that I have no doubt. However, you probably should have disclosed this upfront.

The overall point of the book is we are to obey the government which God has installed over us however their are biblical and historical instances of defying unjust government.

Additionally how this is so powerful is it lays out how we do this. It isn't just everyone for himself.

We are to rally the magistrates to stand in the gap.

Imagine politicians emboldened by Christians to refuse to enact or enforce unjust laws.

I need to read it, but it looks more "current day", than historical from the Amazon blurb. I'm not condemning, just skeptical and cautious, because it can be used the wrong way.

Would the support of clerk Kim Davis be an example of this?

[cue totally whimsical background music]
Out of curiosity, is it up to the individual Christians or a pastor or something to determine which laws are "unjust"?

It seems to make sense that there'd need to be a process for reaching that conclusion.

You would think that!

But this is true, who get's to define that?

I know a good many Christians who don't acknowledge the US Constitution as it is not a Christian form of government.

Now that swings the other way - still totally against Romans 13.

 

[breakingcontact]

Are you familiar with the Magdeburg Confession?

 

[JettaKnight]

I think I've traveled down this road as far as I want to... just going to say, be careful. The Kingdom of Heaven isn't going to brought about by not signing gay marriage certificates any more than it is by having a gay pride day at an inclusive liberal church.


My wife was was reading the paper and said, "Trump is a dumbass!"
"Is that how we Christians are to refer to our leaders."
"But, he's a dumbass!"
"Can you show me that exception in Scripture?"
"um..."
"So, how often do you pray for Donald Trump?"
"but... but..."


I'll admit, I'm guilty of it, but we need to be spending a lot more time on our knees.




And lastly, here's how Dr. Moore responds to someone who wants to use the power of the state to push Christianity.
[video=youtube;BuGxOE0Vy1g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuGxOE0Vy1g[/video]


I think we're entering (entered?) a post-Christian era in America. Fine. Let it happen. The Light shines brighter in the darkness.

 

[breakingcontact]

You're filling in a lot of gaps incorrectly.

I think I've traveled down this road as far as I want to... just going to say, be careful. The Kingdom of Heaven isn't going to brought about by not signing gay marriage certificates any more than it is by having a gay pride day at an inclusive liberal church.


My wife was was reading the paper and said, "Trump is a dumbass!"
"Is that how we Christians are to refer to our leaders."
"But, he's a dumbass!"
"Can you show me that exception in Scripture?"
"um..."
"So, how often do you pray for Donald Trump?"
"but... but..."


I'll admit, I'm guilty of it, but we need to be spending a lot more time on our knees.




And lastly, here's how Dr. Moore responds to someone who wants to use the power of the state to push Christianity.
[video=youtube;BuGxOE0Vy1g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuGxOE0Vy1g[/video]


I think we're entering (entered?) a post-Christian era in America. Fine. Let it happen. The Light shines brighter in the darkness.

 

[breakingcontact]

That's the point which you are intentionally missing?

[cue totally whimsical background music]
Out of curiosity, is it up to the individual Christians or a pastor or something to determine which laws are "unjust"?

It seems to make sense that there'd need to be a process for reaching that conclusion.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I saw a meme on FB the other day that said something analagous to what Moore was saying in that video. I won't do it justice but it said something to the effect that if you're using scripture as a sword to defeat people and win arguments, you're not winning converts, you may be losing them to hell.

I think I've traveled down this road as far as I want to... just going to say, be careful. The Kingdom of Heaven isn't going to brought about by not signing gay marriage certificates any more than it is by having a gay pride day at an inclusive liberal church.


My wife was was reading the paper and said, "Trump is a dumbass!"
"Is that how we Christians are to refer to our leaders."
"But, he's a dumbass!"
"Can you show me that exception in Scripture?"
"um..."
"So, how often do you pray for Donald Trump?"
"but... but..."


I'll admit, I'm guilty of it, but we need to be spending a lot more time on our knees.




And lastly, here's how Dr. Moore responds to someone who wants to use the power of the state to push Christianity.
[video=youtube;BuGxOE0Vy1g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuGxOE0Vy1g[/video]


I think we're entering (entered?) a post-Christian era in America. Fine. Let it happen. The Light shines brighter in the darkness.

 

[breakingcontact]

Where is this happening?

I saw a meme on FB the other day that said something analagous to what Moore was saying in that video. I won't do it justice but it said something to the effect that if you're using scripture as a sword to defeat people and win arguments, you're not winning converts, you may be losing them to hell.

 

[breakingcontact]

Should Christians not back their politicians who are willing to end legalized abortion?

Should not those politicians defy unjust laws and rectify them?

How is this controversial amongst Christians?

Christians aren't to turn to politics to solve the world's problems but way too many are all to eager to not dirty their hands with politics and claim themselves pious.

 

[breakingcontact]

Who here calls themselves a "prolifer"?

How about "abortion abolitionist"?

 

[JettaKnight]

You're filling in a lot of gaps incorrectly.

Ok, fine, please explain it to me.

That's the point which you are intentionally missing?

I think what T.Lex and I are missing is where is the line between Godly resistance and anarchy.

The author makes several points about unjust laws on his blog, but a lot of those were address through the courts...

He also mixes some things up, trying to use forced sterilization of Christians a parallel to allowing gay marriage in Alabama. This is where Christians will disagree:

• Fed. Govt. says two dudes can get married.
• God says dudes aren't suppose get married.
• Kim Davis tells dudes to pound sand - she ain't signing nuttin'.
• Your friend says we need to support Kim.
• Russell Moore says we she should do as she's told and pick up her pen.

Who's right? Who's wrong?

 

[breakingcontact]

Rallying the magistrates to do their jobs =/= anarchy.

Ok, fine, please explain it to me.


I think what T.Lex and I are missing is where is the line between Godly resistance and anarchy.

The author makes several points about unjust laws on his blog, but a lot of those were address through the courts...

He also mixes some things up, trying to use forced sterilization of Christians a parallel to allowing gay marriage in Alabama. This is where Christians will disagree:

• Fed. Govt. says two dudes can get married.
• God says dudes aren't suppose get married.
• Kim Davis tells dudes to pound sand - she ain't signing nuttin'.
• Your friend says we need to support Kim.
• Russell Moore says we she should do as she's told and pick up her pen.

Who's right? Who's wrong?

 

[JettaKnight]

Where is this happening?

Auburn, IN.

 

[breakingcontact]

The federal government has got a lot wrong and sometimes the church had defied that and sometimes it has sinfully silently went along with it.

The state is not God.

 

[JettaKnight]

Rallying the magistrates to do their jobs =/= anarchy.

Define "do their job".

Kim Davis's job is sign off on marriage certificates, isn't it?

 

[T.Lex]

That's the point which you are intentionally missing?

(Just picking up the thread related to my post....)

I'm inviting you to share your view of who gets to decide what is just an unjust when it comes to secular laws.

Here's an example. Some Catholics view the death penalty as an unjust law. They state, and I believe them, that as a juror they would never act to sentence someone to death. That's a perfectly moral position, supporting action. But, in the real world, during jury selection, they will be asked if they believe that. If they answer honestly, the will not get the chance to be on the jury. They would have to be dishonest in answering that question to even have the opportunity to act in concert with their moral position.

But that's an individual choice.

So I'm inviting you to provide your insight on whether it is an individual choice or something more organized.

 

[JettaKnight]

You failing to define a lot here.

Should Christians not back their politicians who are willing to end legalized abortion?

I support Christian politicians who work within the system to get laws changed.

Should not those politicians defy unjust laws and rectify them?

Give me some examples, please.

How is this controversial amongst Christians?

What's controversial is what actions are taken to defy unjust laws, and what qualifies as an unjust law. To date, you've only listed abortion, and I talked about the author's take on gay marriage.

Christians aren't to turn to politics to solve the world's problems but way too many are all to eager to not dirty their hands with politics and claim themselves pious.

The problem is that the Moral Majority of the 80's has really left a sour taste in the mouth. The pendulum has swung away, Republicans look to Christians as a voting block to be pandered to. Just look at Pence's campaign speech to the SBC Annual Meeting a week ago.

The federal government has got a lot wrong and sometimes the church had defied that and sometimes it has sinfully silently went along with it.

The state is not God.

No argument here. But please give me examples of why this actionable right now.