CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Islam...

[T.Lex]

Guess what I opened my Quran to today? The chapter of Hud, the recounting of the tale of Noah. Complete happenstance on my part, I did not intend to do so. If you believe it's divine will or simply happen coincidence is up to you and irrelevant to me. Regardless of the "how" and "why", it lifted my mood, and increased my faith that this is right for me. I have again received what I needed when I needed it by reading the Quran.

Today also starts Ramadan.

At the risk of being presumptuous, you need to find the part where it cautions against recommending ATM prepare an interpretive dance. I'm positive its in there somewhere.



May you have an otherwise peaceful Ramadan.

 

[T.Lex]

So, in 30 days BBI should be about 10 pounds lighter!

I spent a couple years playing soccer with a team of mostly Muslims. Ramadan was tough. I clearly remember one guy taking a long time to get up off his back after getting knocked down. Lots longer than usual.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I spent a couple years playing soccer with a team of mostly Muslims. Ramadan was tough. I clearly remember one guy taking a long time to get up off his back after getting knocked down. Lots longer than usual.

Addressing the subject seriously, I would imagine that it is difficult and taxing on a person. That said, I believed it sufficiently obvious that I was making no attempt to be serious!

 

[ATM]

Unable or unwilling? An appeal to pride? Especially intellectual pride? Ah, you tempter you... Maybe when I was younger. No, definitely when I was younger.

How about this. As we both know, words in the written form are so dry, so devoid of all but the barest of communication ability. No tone, no inflection, no body language...so dry and easy to misunderstand. But movement holds truth. It's so much more difficult to misunderstand body language and movement than the written word.

Hence, I propose you lay out your case that Jesus is divine and that Islam is a separate religion in the form of an interpretive dance. I would suppose a half an hour or so would be enough time to get the level of detail required, say 30-40 minutes? We'll all await the Youtube video so I can properly understand your request and respond accordingly.

Getting me to dance is easy, I love to dance!

Getting me to quit when the music stops is tougher.

Allow me to rephrase my position:

If you state some of your beliefs and I have a question regarding some point or conflict that I can't reconcile, you citing text(s) from someone neither of us can question is not a helpful response to me. I have no idea how Mohammed would reconcile what he wrote, if he would attempt to do so in the same manner you must have at some point, or if your interpretation of his text even matches his own, let alone what I might conclude from it.

Citing Mohammed's writings to my questions comes across to me the same as answering, "because I believe that's what Mohammed claimed" to every one of my questions.

The most savage jihadist committing atrocities according to his beliefs could respond in like kind to all of my questions, citing the same text(s), but their actual beliefs (based on their own interpretations and reconciliations) seem so far from yours.

That's why I want to discuss your beliefs with you.

Only you can answer my questions regarding your beliefs.

 

[ATM]

OK, that settles it. We are NOT going to remove ATM from Indiana!

There was actually a petition going around at one point. Might want to wait and see how many signatures it got before you decide.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

So, in 30 days BBI should be about 10 pounds lighter!

I never lose weight during Ramadan. Too many sweets when you break the fast. Jordanian sweets are soooo good.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Getting me to dance is easy, I love to dance!

Getting me to quit when the music stops is tougher.

Allow me to rephrase my position:

If you state some of your beliefs and I have a question regarding some point or conflict that I can't reconcile, you citing text(s) from someone neither of us can question is not a helpful response to me. I have no idea how Mohammed would reconcile what he wrote, if he would attempt to do so in the same manner you must have at some point, or if your interpretation of his text even matches his own, let alone what I might conclude from it.

Citing Mohammed's writings to my questions comes across to me the same as answering, "because I believe that's what Mohammed claimed" to every one of my questions.

The most savage jihadist committing atrocities according to his beliefs could respond in like kind to all of my questions, citing the same text(s), but their actual beliefs (based on their own interpretations and reconciliations) seem so far from yours.

That's why I want to discuss your beliefs with you.

Only you can answer my questions regarding your beliefs.

You didn't rephrase it in interpretative dance but I'll allow it this time.

You're not rephrasing, though, you're trying a new theme. Nothing you've asked is relevant to my interpretation vs a terrorist's interpretation. Nor am I unique in my "non-terrorist" interpretation. I hold no "secret sauce" that is available only from me that is relevant to the topic. The book on Amazon I've recommended a few times can give you the info you say you seek.

You can always ask, but you can't dictate the response. If I choose to respond and incorporate the Quran into an answer, and you find that to be an obstacle to understanding, that's for you to overcome. You've already got the resources to do so.

 

[ATM]

You didn't rephrase it in interpretative dance but I'll allow it this time.

You're not rephrasing, though, you're trying a new theme. Nothing you've asked is relevant to my interpretation vs a terrorist's interpretation. Nor am I unique in my "non-terrorist" interpretation. I hold no "secret sauce" that is available only from me that is relevant to the topic. The book on Amazon I've recommended a few times can give you the info you say you seek.

You can always ask, but you can't dictate the response. If I choose to respond and incorporate the Quran into an answer, and you find that to be an obstacle to understanding, that's for you to overcome. You've already got the resources to do so.

It seems to me that you've just adopted some texts and haven't even reasonably processed them into personal beliefs yet. If you truly aren't able to go any further with me than you have, I'll await someone more capable of describing how and why they believe those texts.

Blessings to you on your journey.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It seems to me that you've just adopted some texts and haven't even reasonably processed them into personal beliefs yet. If you truly aren't able to go any further with me than you have, I'll await someone more capable of describing how and why they believe those texts.

Blessings to you on your journey.

Another theme change? Now the need to refute you or risk self esteem loss and concern of what you and "they" will think of me if I fail to? It's a good theme, but requires you to build more rapport and hone in on insecurities a little more finely before employing it.

Thanks for the well wishes, and I look forward to the interpretative dance video.

 

[PaulF]

I often hear Christians slamming Muslims for refusing to speak out against the extreme element of their religious societies. These same Christians seem to refuse to acknowledge that there is a more modern Islam gaining influence throughout the world.

This video is from a large telecom. Peace is good for business.

[video=youtube_share;U49nOBFv508]http://youtu.be/U49nOBFv508[/video]

 

[IndyDave1776]

I often hear Christians slamming Muslims for refusing to speak out against the extreme element of their religious societies. These same Christians seem to refuse to acknowledge that there is a more modern Islam gaining influence throughout the world.

This video is from a large telecom. Peace is good for business.

Good find Paul! It is a shame we don't see more of this in our regular news stream such that you don't have to already know about it in order to find it. Hopefully this vision will be the direction the future takes.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Muslims typically fast during Ramadan. You can also fast at other times of the year as you see fit, but Ramadan is when the Muslim community fasts together. Fasting requires you to not eat, drink, or engage in sex from sun up to sun set. It also requires the fasting to be an intentional act, you must mentally decide to fast before you start. It's also widely accepted you can't smoke if you are a smoker. Some also believe foul language and arguing must be avoided while fasting as well, although I see no basis for that belief myself. Not that you should curse and argue, mind you, just that doing so somehow breaks the fast. I think perhaps this comes from Hadith (sort of like case law for Muslims, interpretations as questions have arisen and that have given rise to the various schools (what Christians would think of as denominations) of Islam) Per Hadith, Mohammed said if you were false in speech or conduct while fasting, you would not get the benefit. I took that to mean lies. Just a reminder Islam isn't monolithic, some are "stricter" and more literal that others.

2:183 is the beginning of the requirements for fasting. Note it's actually pretty lenient and shows God understands not everyone can fast.

O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous -

O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous -[Fasting for] a limited number of days. So whoever among you is ill or on a journey [during them] - then an equal number of days [are to be made up]. And upon those who are able [to fast, but with hardship] - a ransom [as substitute] of feeding a poor person [each day]. And whoever volunteers excess - it is better for him. But to fast is best for you, if you only knew.

The month of Ramadhan [is that] in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever sights [the new moon of] the month, let him fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.

[h=2][/h]The "...if you only knew" is generally taken to mean that man does not understand all of the benefits of fasting. Some claim there are health and longevity benefits, but I'm dubious of those claims. I would think "...if you only knew" means something out of our realm of understanding.

The benefits for me personally are the "perhaps you will be grateful" and empathy to remind you to be charitable (both mentally and financially). It's very easy for me to forget what it's like to be hungry. Even when I was poor, I was poor on a rural homestead and with access to the US social safety net. I was never without food or water. My ex-wife grew up in the projects of Jersey City with a mentally ill dad and several older siblings. Her experience with hunger was quite different, and not something I can really appreciate. Third world hunger and thirst, again, quite different than my experience. Fasting gives you a taste, and just a taste, of that deprivation so you are more empathetic toward those who can't end their fast simply by deciding to do so. You see it's easier to be cranky, it's harder to be motivated, etc. It makes you thankful to have access to plenty and to be fasting voluntarily.

If you can't fast, the examples in the Quran are you're ill or traveling, you can make up the days later in the year. You have until the next Ramadan to fast for the days you missed. If you can't, or it would cause you great hardship, you can make up for it via charity. The charity must specifically be in the form of feeding the hungry, and at a minimum you must donate enough to feed one person for one day.

There's a ton of Hadith on what constitutes a hardship. Breast feeding is one that's as close to universally recognized as anything is. What constitutes "traveling", if soldiers, guards, and police who must be clear headed and physically ready to chase or fight is generally agreed as a hardship but probably not as widely. (I'd say me sitting in a climate controlled office is not, the beat cop in the summer wearing armor and dealing with altercations routinely is)

Fasting during Ramadan is also a way for communities to come together. It's a shared ritual, and when I was in Qatar it was a very festival like attitude when you broke your fast with your neighbors and with complete strangers. It's a real sense of togetherness with your fellow man. I also believe that social aspect is one of the benefits when it's available to you.

Like beginning the fast, breaking the fast must be an intentional act. If you truly forget you are fasting and take a drink or eat (say you're cooking for later and absent mindedly taste a dish to check it's seasoning or what have you) then that doesn't break your fast. Mohammed said it's by God if you accidentally eat or drink so it's ok to continue with your fast (which of course implies God knows if you're gaming the system...)

It's not burdensome, nor is it strict. When I go visit my dad next week, I will not fast that day. He does not fast, and even if he did he's ill, and I always take him to eat when I visit. I would not waste that social interaction and break the expectation with my own father, as I do not think it's required of me based on the Quran and related Hadith. I can make up the day later or donate food or money to do so. The flexibility and the divine understanding inherent in it is of great importance to me, further proof that this is right for me.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

...to acknowledge that there is a more modern Islam gaining influence throughout the world.

More modern in some ways, a return to original truth in others. Certainly more modern in understanding the use of technology to expand the message as well as the acceptance of a changing world. Reminds me of a much more polished version of the ISIS sucks campaign: https://www.soundvision.com/isis_sucks

Social media and these slick productions are so valuable. The more I've studied decision making and the psychology of it, the more I've come to understand how powerful marketing done well is. ISIS recruits not by religious reasoning as much as by belonging, a greater cause, a community for those without one. That's why they recruit from the same target audience as criminal street gangs. Showing community against, and even with those who renounce, is powerful.

 

[ATM]

Another theme change? Now the need to refute you or risk self esteem loss and concern of what you and "they" will think of me if I fail to? It's a good theme, but requires you to build more rapport and hone in on insecurities a little more finely before employing it.

You shouldn't care what they or I think of you, it's your prophet and his god that haven't and can't answer. Apart from them, you've merely adopted a collection of writings. They could be nothing more than a counterfeit record, a hoax, a lie, an agenda, a deception.

You can use it as a self-help book to become a better person and jihadist terrorists can use it as a guide to justify waging war against non-Muslims. Same writings.

I don't need anything from you, I only asked about your beliefs and perspective to help me conclude anything different than that.

Thanks for the well wishes, and I look forward to the interpretative dance video.

You're welcome. I respect you even though I have no respect for your beliefs.
And, get your dollar bills ready. When you experience the dance I have prepared for you, it won't just be watching a video.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't need anything from you...

This is your opportunity to get your side of the story on the record. This is for you, not for me.

I've used that theme in nearly every interview. I like the challenge that God can't answer. Nice hook to lead into the new theme.

 

[ATM]

This is your opportunity to get your side of the story on the record. This is for you, not for me.

I've used that theme in nearly every interview. I like the challenge that God can't answer. Nice hook to lead into the new theme.

Send more Muslims.

 

[foszoe]

I admitted to Cygnus once, in a PM which I will deny unless he produces it, that while I "hate" the Patriots, I do admire Brady and that crew and that comeback in the Super Bowl was one for the ages.

Nicene Creed Baby, in its original form of course. We agree on that! all the rest is fluff.

And don't think I didn't notice you are eating meat and dairy on a Friday!

Hate crime! Hate crime.....and your suspicion is WAY understated. In fact there are 3 of us and I believe all different versions. You'd be surprised we'd agree on, a lot.

Now I must go and finish my meal consisting of a lukewarm pilsner beer, some stinky cheese, some bread, olive oil and veggies. And of course, a slightly greasy meat that may or may not be beef.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Send more Muslims.

Dismissive with a touch of condescension, a little solo good cop/bad cop after earlier declarations of caring. As a face saving move, not bad. As a new theme, it's risky. Particularly with my personality type and level of rapport established. I'd try to reel it back in with a "I'm just trying to understand" vs the more common "I'm now invested in you and just got upset you're not helping me help you."

 

[Cygnus]

I admitted to Cygnus once, in a PM which I will deny unless he produces it, that while I "hate" the Patriots, I do admire Brady and that crew and that comeback in the Super Bowl was one for the ages.

Nicene Creed Baby, in its original form of course. We agree on that! all the rest is fluff.

And don't think I didn't notice you are eating meat and dairy on a Friday!

Ah, I've sen you've cranked up your diesel powered laptop (used by all Orthodox online). Hey, if you are a fan of the game you'd have to like that comeback. I still admire the Colts' comeback the year they won....this year at 28-3 I started responding to texts from the midwest with ""they have then right where they want them"
Agree on the fluff part. As for the meat, lent is over . I don't go as much as I used to but was an alterboy. so I've got points saved up!
Now let's go see if we can get some sweets from BBI. I want the rolled up baklava type thing and I'm hoping he has some of that pizza shaped spongecake thing with the red syrup and cheese. (Kaftka?)
And to be on topic a bit.....I recall a few coworkers who did struggle with the cigarette thing during Ramadan. Food, water didn't seem to be a big issue, but Marlboro's.....

 

[ATM]

Dismissive with a touch of condescension, a little solo good cop/bad cop after earlier declarations of caring. As a face saving move, not bad. As a new theme, it's risky. Particularly with my personality type and level of rapport established. I'd try to reel it back in with a "I'm just trying to understand" vs the more common "I'm now invested in you and just got upset you're not helping me help you."

You'd lose when you lied, if you were me at this point, I already understand.

I'm neither upset nor finished helping you. Ignoring me is the only way for you to stop me from helping you, but even that doesn't stop me from helping others interested in the discussion.

Your careful analysis and experience scrutinizing and discerning truth from deceptive claims and agenda would have been well applied to the claims of Mohammed that you adopted. My only remaining question is why you waited for me to scrutinize them when you seem reasonably equipped to do so yourself ...and could have all this time?

I mean, you still could ...if discerning truth is more important than any belief you currently hold.

Again, blessings as you continue your journey.