CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Islam...

[ATM]

And yet, this thread is "Civil Discussion" - not "Civil Argument."

Point out where I have veered from that, please.

I know, fine lines and subjective boundaries. Just suggesting that, as someone who knows a thing or two about how to draw out information, you may want to modulate your approach sometimes on this issue.

If you knew my record, you'd be asking for pointers, not giving them.

 

[T.Lex]

Point out where I have veered from that, please.

vvv Arguably argumentative.

What if I wasn't ever a Jew but was in fact a gentile only grafted into the trunk of Judaism through faith in Christ and the God He described as the same God of the Jews?

What if when Mohammed came along, I didn't recognize the god he described as the same God I placed my faith in? What if I didn't recognize Mohammed's teachings as inspired of God? What if Mohammed was just a guy describing some other god and some other way to discern and follow the will of that god?
What if Mohammed was insecure enough to suggest that what he spoke could not be subjected to questioning or even ridicule because he feared it wouldn't reasonably withstand such?

Why would I follow Mohammed or consider him to be the next in a line of prophets speaking for the God of Abraham? I rarely follow followers except as they lead me to Truth.

If you knew my record, you'd be asking for pointers, not giving them.

I always open to new techniques - even if only to reject them.

 

[ATM]

vvv Arguably argumentative.

Establishing the perspective, my frame of reference, for all previous questions and likely those which will follow for some time.

What was there to argue in any of that? It should make our discussion more fruitful to understand each others' perspectives and identify what we each consider to be authoritative and why.

I always open to new techniques - even if only to reject them.

Never reject a thing until you understand it.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I care bout you, not the Quran.

I do not recognize the Quran as a holy book or Mohammed as a prophet so to appeal directly to the authority of either is senseless.

It's only senseless if I'm trying to convince you to abandon your doctrine for mine. I'm not. I'm answering your question of how it's possible to accept Jesus as a prophet, and to call him Messiah, without giving him the status of a deity. If you believe in the authority of the Quran or Mohammed or not is irrelevant to understanding my perspective.

You don't have to recognize it, but if you want to understand the Muslim perspective then you'll need to understand the Quran. You can understand something without the need to accept it's authority. If you deem it "unsupported", then that's where you'll have to leave it.

 

[hog slayer]

It's only senseless if I'm trying to convince you to abandon your doctrine for mine. I'm not. I'm answering your question of how it's possible to accept Jesus as a prophet, and to call him Messiah, without giving him the status of a deity. If you believe in the authority of the Quran or Mohammed or not is irrelevant to understanding my perspective.

You don't have to recognize it, but if you want to understand the Muslim perspective then you'll need to understand the Quran. You can understand something without the need to accept it's authority. If you deem it "unsupported", then that's where you'll have to leave it.

I wish to better understand the Quran. It seems like a difficult task for many to assist me in this. I know that isn't grounds for absolute disbelief. Nonetheless, I've scrutinized the Quran myself in lieu of outside assistance. I'm not convinced that there is enough compelling evidence to satisfy an objective investigator in honest exploration that the Quran is what it claims to be. I used words that sound funny when I send them your way. However, they most accurately describe why I think you're the best possibility for that education, if anyone were to make the effort.

 

[IndyDave1776]

(Per the Quran, everyone was Muslim as long as they followed the most recent prophet, so pre-Jesus Jews were "Muslim" as they were doing what they were aware of as God's will, etc.)

This is a very significant point. As I understood it on my own, it appeared that Islam was guilty of 'prophet-jacking' and/or attempting to re-write history. As you have explained, it is merely a matter of perspective and how one understands the description.

 

[ATM]

It's only senseless if I'm trying to convince you to abandon your doctrine for mine. I'm not. I'm answering your question of how it's possible to accept Jesus as a prophet, and to call him Messiah, without giving him the status of a deity. If you believe in the authority of the Quran or Mohammed or not is irrelevant to understanding my perspective.

You don't have to recognize it, but if you want to understand the Muslim perspective then you'll need to understand the Quran. You can understand something without the need to accept it's authority. If you deem it "unsupported", then that's where you'll have to leave it.

Anyone could redefine or avoid certain words that Jesus used or verses he referred to in doing so and add lots of other distracting facts that do nothing to reconcile the notion of defining Jesus as a prophet but only a prophet.

That Mohammed tried this is nothing spectacular (others have tried, too), because it's actually a rather tricky problem to hold that belief in light of all that Jesus said and the reactions to all that He said. You've adopted a notion that Jesus didn't reasonably leave available to adopt or conclude. If you can reconcile rather than dismiss it, I'd like to know how ...because I couldn't do it.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This is a very significant point. As I understood it on my own, it appeared that Islam was guilty of 'prophet-jacking' and/or attempting to re-write history. As you have explained, it is merely a matter of perspective and how one understands the description.

Right. It's important to realize Mohammed and early Islam did not view Islam as a distinct religion but as a correction in course of the existing religion. I believe the same is true of early Christians. They were Jews who were taking a new path, and only later become a distinct religion in the way protestants and Catholics are distinct but share common attributes. To be "Muslim" is simply to submit to the will of God, as you know it and understand it. Abraham was Muslim, not because he somehow followed the message of the revelations to Mohammed that he had no knowledge of, but because he followed the message of God as revealed to him. Replace the Arabic "Muslim" with the English translation of "One who submits to God" and it becomes easier for the non-Arabic speaker to understand.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I wish to better understand the Quran. It seems like a difficult task for many to assist me in this.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0860374165/ is where I'd start. You can get a used copy shipped to your door for roughly $5.

Remember, though, that Islam is not monolithic. You will not understand every interpretation from one book. I certainly don't understand every school, no more than I understand every denomination of Christianity. They are all using their understanding of the Bible to decide what an appropriate dress code is, if musical instruments are allowed, who's allowed to talk when (and if talking in tongues is a thing or not), etc. etc. It would likely require a few mortal lifespans to understand everyone's interpretations, the basis for each, etc.

What I think this particular book does well is give you the "mainstream" interpretation as well as point out significant minority opinions. It is significantly more tolerant of dissent than what you'd find from, say something from a Wahabi.

 

[ATM]

Right. It's important to realize Mohammed and early Islam did not view Islam as a distinct religion but as a correction in course of the existing religion. I believe the same is true of early Christians. They were Jews who were taking a new path, and only later become a distinct religion in the way protestants and Catholics are distinct but share common attributes. To be "Muslim" is simply to submit to the will of God, as you know it and understand it. Abraham was Muslim, not because he somehow followed the message of the revelations to Mohammed that he had no knowledge of, but because he followed the message of God as revealed to him. Replace the Arabic "Muslim" with the English translation of "One who submits to God" and it becomes easier for the non-Arabic speaker to understand.

Which of Mohammed's prophet Jesus' teachings did Mohammed need to correct? Which had become wrong even though they were initially right and the will of their same God in Jesus' time?

Was Jesus a fallen being or perfect?

What about Mohammed? Fallen being or perfect?

What attracted you to follow Mohammed's corrections? Was it the flaws you found in the teachings of Jesus, the previous prophet of Islam?

Who is the next prophet of Islam and when should we expect Mohammed's teachings to be corrected?

Which would you say are overdue?

Are you certain it's not just a different religion started by Mohammed? How could you know? How did you determine otherwise. or is believing otherwise just an inherent part of the adoption process?

Help me understand since I can't just accept it on faith alone.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I find it difficult to see two people I hold in high regard sparring, especially when one isn't really feeling inclined toward doing so. I would offer that someone who is not nor has the intention to become a theologian will often be drawn toward thought that resonates with him for any of a number of tangible or less tangible reasons, and also understand that it may or may not be thought with which I would be inclined to agree. I would also point out that it can be very taxing for someone who is not inclined toward being a professional or amateur theologian to be held up as the public face of his personal beliefs. It is good to be able to explain your faith, and Christian doctrine particularly calls for doing so (although relatively few practitioners seem able to do this), but it is important to remember that it is not something which everyone is comfortable doing.

 

[ATM]

I find it difficult to see two people I hold in high regard sparring, especially when one isn't really feeling inclined toward doing so. I would offer that someone who is not nor has the intention to become a theologian will often be drawn toward thought that resonates with him for any of a number of tangible or less tangible reasons, and also understand that it may or may not be thought with which I would be inclined to agree. I would also point out that it can be very taxing for someone who is not inclined toward being a professional or amateur theologian to be held up as the public face of his personal beliefs. It is good to be able to explain your faith, and Christian doctrine particularly calls for doing so (although relatively few practitioners seem able to do this), but it is important to remember that it is not something which everyone is comfortable doing.

I don't want theology, I could get that elsewhere on the internet or from a book. I want to have a discussion with a Muslim who is willing.
I respond to what he says and asks, he responds to what I say and ask.

I don't care so much what he believes but to understand how he came to adopt or believe it and what it actually means to him. I can then contrast that with what it actually means to others and how they came to adopt or believe it.

Maybe I'll want to adopt or believe it when it's all said and done, I'm a reasonable person.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Help me understand since I can't just accept it on faith alone.

Sure. Pick up a Quran and study it.

As for why I am Muslim, I've covered that elsewhere.

 

[ATM]

Sure. Pick up a Quran and study it.

As for why I am Muslim, I've covered that elsewhere.

My questions are based on what you've told me about your beliefs so far, not what is contained in that book.

That book can't even begin to answer some of the questions you skipped, either. Only you could answer them.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

My questions are based on what you've told me about your beliefs so far, not what is contained in that book.

That book can't even begin to answer some of the questions you skipped, either. Only you could answer them.

Then you'll simply be left wanting.

 

[ATM]

Then you'll simply be left wanting.

The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want.

When you tell me bout your lord and your prophets, I might just have follow-up questions for you.

I'm not actually lord or prophet shopping, but people and their beliefs fascinate me.

 

[T.Lex]

Did you see the thread where I posted that there are still disciples of John the Baptist? Not many, but enough for them to have their own society.

Talk about not getting the message....

 

[indiucky]

Did you see the thread where I posted that there are still disciples of John the Baptist? Not many, but enough for them to have their own society.

Talk about not getting the message....

Offshoots of Mormon/LDS.....And it's barely 200 years old......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_denominations_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

 

[Cygnus]

I have nothing to add, but as an Orthodox Christian raised outside of Dearborn, I find this interesting, and civil! Carry on.....

 

[hog slayer]

Offshoots of Mormon/LDS.....And it's barely 200 years old......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_denominations_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

ah, the Mormons. Do we really need another "civil religious thread?