CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Islam...

[ATM]

From upthread, while I wait for more Muslims willing to discuss their Muslim beliefs (or a new civil Mormon discussion thread ):

I think it an exercise in futility to require non-Christians to "reconcile" the divinity issue. It is not their belief, so it is not their issue to reconcile.

You misunderstand the point, then. To make the claim that Jesus was simply a prophet or great moral teacher, one must reconcile His claims that were considered blasphemous lies or sheer lunacy as well. No cherry picking. Those who don't make that claim (while also denying His divinity) are quite free to dismiss him as a liar or a lunatic (who just also happened to have some great moral teachings and insights to accompany His miracles).

It's not a Christian belief or doctrine that I'm aware of to label Him a prophet while denying his divinity, it's rather a non-Christian notion to be reconciled by anyone suggesting it.

Conceptually, it is more difficult to reconcile the Trinity as non-polytheism. In fact, the Catholic construct is to not reconcile it all. Rather, it is, literally, a "mystery."

So, simplistically, if my god was water, the fact that it can and does exist in 3 distinctly different states (water, ice, steam), each with distinctly different characteristics (liquid, solid, vapor), and that might earn a label like polyaquatictheisticism from some, you think it would be difficult to overcome the label and better to call it a mystery?

Your choice, I suppose.

 

[T.Lex]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around 2 Orthodox Christians have internet access. And BOTH of them are members of INGO.

$20 says they belong to different sides of the Greek/Russian thing.

 

[Cygnus]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around 2 Orthodox Christians have internet access. And BOTH of them are members of INGO.

$20 says they belong to different sides of the Greek/Russian thing.

Hate crime! Hate crime.....and your suspicion is WAY understated. In fact there are 3 of us and I believe all different versions. You'd be surprised we'd agree on, a lot.

Now I must go and finish my meal consisting of a lukewarm pilsner beer, some stinky cheese, some bread, olive oil and veggies. And of course, a slightly greasy meat that may or may not be beef.

 

[ATM]

Send more Muslims.

I'd like to discuss their beliefs with them, not Mohammed's beliefs or his agenda in writing things down and starting his own new religion.

 

[T.Lex]

...not Mohammed's beliefs or his agenda in writing things down and starting his own new religion.

Would that same critique also apply to Jesus, Luther, and Jobs?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Send more Muslims.

I'd like to discuss their beliefs with them, not Mohammed's beliefs or his agenda in writing things down and starting his own new religion.

The thread is a discussion of Islam. It's impossible to discuss Islam, or a Muslim's perspective of such, without discussion of the Quran and Mohammed. If you really want to understand Muslim beliefs, you've been given the resources. If you wish to argue doctrine, there's plenty of places available to you online.

 

[ATM]

Would that same critique also apply to Jesus, Luther, and Jobs?

Possibly, give it a try if you like and I may join you in exploring the possibilities.

 

[ATM]

The thread is a discussion of Islam. It's impossible to discuss Islam, or a Muslim's perspective of such, without discussion of the Quran and Mohammed. If you really want to understand Muslim beliefs, you've been given the resources. If you wish to argue doctrine, there's plenty of places available to you online.

It should certainly be possible if you really believe for some reason that Islam is an Abrahamic offshoot or extension of Judaism and Christianity as you claimed.

Where have I attempted to argue doctrine? I'd likely be willing to, but that has not been my purpose or activity in this thread.

 

[T.Lex]

Possibly, give it a try if you like and I may join you in exploring the possibilities.

I have considered that critique. Why do you think I included Jobs?

 

[ATM]

I have considered that critique. Why do you think I included Jobs?

My guess is because he impacted decisions on a human and thus, a cultural level.

 

[T.Lex]

My guess is because he impacted decisions on a human and thus, a cultural level.

And that he's started a religion.

 

[ATM]

And that he's started a religion.

Or a cult, there are many other words that could also be suitably used.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It should certainly be possible if you really believe for some reason that Islam is an Abrahamic offshoot or extension of Judaism and Christianity as you claimed.

Where have I attempted to argue doctrine? I'd likely be willing to, but that has not been my purpose or activity in this thread.

You can take a peek at the 2015 thread when I was more concerned with this sort of thing. Then I ran across a verse in the Quran that resonated with me, that was just what I needed when I needed it. To paraphrase, "it's your duty to show people the truth, it's not your job to make them accept it or to practice it." If your desire to learn and understand is honest, I've given you the resources you need, if you realize and accept it or not. If your desire is simply debate for the sake of debate (couched however you like), I've no duty at all.

 

[ATM]

You can take a peek at the 2015 thread when I was more concerned with this sort of thing. Then I ran across a verse in the Quran that resonated with me, that was just what I needed when I needed it. To paraphrase, "it's your duty to show people the truth, it's not your job to make them accept it or to practice it." If your desire to learn and understand is honest, I've given you the resources you need, if you realize and accept it or not. If your desire is simply debate for the sake of debate (couched however you like), I've no duty at all.

If you'll offer a link to your past thread, I'll give it a browse to see if that thread contains the answers I seek from you regarding your beliefs as you stated them in this thread.

When you state beliefs that I can't reasonably reconcile, I seek to understand how you reasonably reconcile them so that I may proceed to consider your beliefs as reasonably as you are able.

Otherwise, I'm the one who is stuck, unable to reasonably consider your beliefs any further without your help.

You may leave me here in this state and I will be fine.

 

[T.Lex]

You may leave me here in this state and I will be fine.

Some INGOers remain unconvinced.

 

[ATM]

Some INGOers remain unconvinced.

Yet they find themselves intriguingly unable to refute it.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Yet they find themselves intriguingly unable to refute it.

Unable or unwilling? An appeal to pride? Especially intellectual pride? Ah, you tempter you... Maybe when I was younger. No, definitely when I was younger.

How about this. As we both know, words in the written form are so dry, so devoid of all but the barest of communication ability. No tone, no inflection, no body language...so dry and easy to misunderstand. But movement holds truth. It's so much more difficult to misunderstand body language and movement than the written word.

Hence, I propose you lay out your case that Jesus is divine and that Islam is a separate religion in the form of an interpretive dance. I would suppose a half an hour or so would be enough time to get the level of detail required, say 30-40 minutes? We'll all await the Youtube video so I can properly understand your request and respond accordingly.

 

[IndyDave1776]

You may leave me here in this state and I will be fine.

OK, that settles it. We are NOT going to remove ATM from Indiana!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Noah was "just a prophet", but what a prophet he was. Noah was the ultimate doer.... It's irrelevant to me if you believe The Flood is a literal event or allegory, but Noah's story should be a massive inspiration to everyone to do and to not complain (I said hypocritically...)

THAT's the sort of thing that interests me.

Guess what I opened my Quran to today? The chapter of Hud, the recounting of the tale of Noah. Complete happenstance on my part, I did not intend to do so. If you believe it's divine will or simply happen coincidence is up to you and irrelevant to me. Regardless of the "how" and "why", it lifted my mood, and increased my faith that this is right for me. I have again received what I needed when I needed it by reading the Quran.

Today also starts Ramadan.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Guess what I opened my Quran to today? The chapter of Hud, the recounting of the tale of Noah. Complete happenstance on my part, I did not intend to do so. If you believe it's divine will or simply happen coincidence is up to you and irrelevant to me. Regardless of the "how" and "why", it lifted my mood, and increased my faith that this is right for me. I have again received what I needed when I needed it by reading the Quran.

Today also starts Ramadan.

So, in 30 days BBI should be about 10 pounds lighter!