CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[foszoe]

I can't recommend the following book highly enough. ANYONE interested in early church doctrine should a) Read this book b) use the extensive bibliography to read source material.

https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Tradition-Development-Doctrine-Emergence/dp/0226653714

BUT it is very rigorous in its scholarship. I needed a dictionary. It was THE most influential Book, along with volume 2, in my conversion to Orthodoxy.

I loved to listen to his show, The Bible Answer Man; smart guy, and can explain things in concrete terms with practical language. When he converted, Bott Radio Network dropped him like a hot potato; but they keep the Trump sycophant, Robert Jeffress and Religious Right zealots like Janet Mefferd (who sits squarely in the "Don't be gay, sparky!" camp) and David Barton (infamous for his pseudo-history).

When he converted, my first thought was, "Hmm, maybe Orthodox has some more merits than I thought." Of course, our discussions lead me to that same conclusion, but I'll continue to cling tight to Faith Alone.

 

[historian]

I can't recommend the following book highly enough. ANYONE interested in early church doctrine should a) Read this book b) use the extensive bibliography to read source material.

https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Tradition-Development-Doctrine-Emergence/dp/0226653714

BUT it is very rigorous in its scholarship. I needed a dictionary. It was THE most influential Book, along with volume 2, in my conversion to Orthodoxy.

Just added to my wish list. Seeing as I'm currently banned from buying physical books for a while, it will have to wait, but it looks interesting!

 

[JettaKnight]

Just added to my wish list. Seeing as I'm currently banned from buying physical books for a while, it will have to wait, but it looks interesting!

Which one best describes you?

https://babylonbee.com/news/mans-impressive-book-collection-entirely-ornamental
-- or --
https://babylonbee.com/news/seminarian-unable-find-bible-among-towering-stacks-theology-books


Hey Foszoe: I just made $0.50!

 

[historian]

Which one best describes you?

https://babylonbee.com/news/mans-impressive-book-collection-entirely-ornamental
-- or --
https://babylonbee.com/news/seminarian-unable-find-bible-among-towering-stacks-theology-books


Hey Foszoe: I just made $0.50!

The latter for sure. I'm doing a pretty rough reading plan this year. M'Chyne (sp). OT once, NT, Psalms, and Proverbs twice.

 

[historian]

Hey T! St. Alpha Romero!

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/14/6572...ampaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=2042

 

[foszoe]

Have yet to meet a Protestant that has read the whole bible in a year. Most of them wimp out after just 66 books....

The latter for sure. I'm doing a pretty rough reading plan this year. M'Chyne (sp). OT once, NT, Psalms, and Proverbs twice.

 

[thunderchicken]

So the church I belong to is looking for new ideas to draw in new people and keep them. I am looking for info from others on outreach programs that have either worked for their church to see growth or ideas to reach people.
Our church reached its peak attendance back in 1975-76 at 250 attendees weekly. Since then there has been considerable decline as the economy around us has changed. People have moved to be closer to better jobs or in hopes of better schools/ neighborhoods etc. We are now under 100 weekly and we have decided we need to do some things differently to see growth. Since this is the only church I have ever attended, I have no real idea what others do to reach their community. Any ideas would be appreciated

 

[T.Lex]

Hey T! St. Alpha Romero!

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/14/6572...ampaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=2042

haha That's a call back!

 

[historian]

So the church I belong to is looking for new ideas to draw in new people and keep them. I am looking for info from others on outreach programs that have either worked for their church to see growth or ideas to reach people.
Our church reached its peak attendance back in 1975-76 at 250 attendees weekly. Since then there has been considerable decline as the economy around us has changed. People have moved to be closer to better jobs or in hopes of better schools/ neighborhoods etc. We are now under 100 weekly and we have decided we need to do some things differently to see growth. Since this is the only church I have ever attended, I have no real idea what others do to reach their community. Any ideas would be appreciated

Well. Preach the gospel faithfully. That is rule number one

Now. What kind of church is it? What is the demographics of the area? What is your current schedule?

 

[historian]

Have yet to meet a Protestant that has read the whole bible in a year. Most of them wimp out after just 66 books....

Well, I'm reading other non-biblical books, so the Jack Ryan Jr. Novel over the weekend (500+ pages) should count .

 

[ChristianPatriot]

So the church I belong to is looking for new ideas to draw in new people and keep them. I am looking for info from others on outreach programs that have either worked for their church to see growth or ideas to reach people.
Our church reached its peak attendance back in 1975-76 at 250 attendees weekly. Since then there has been considerable decline as the economy around us has changed. People have moved to be closer to better jobs or in hopes of better schools/ neighborhoods etc. We are now under 100 weekly and we have decided we need to do some things differently to see growth. Since this is the only church I have ever attended, I have no real idea what others do to reach their community. Any ideas would be appreciated

That is a very slippery slope, and I would warn against you changing things just for the specific reason of growth. We’re not responsible for church growth. 1 Corinthians 3:6-8. We’re responsible for spreading the gospel. God gives the increase. If your church has become stagnant then I would take a hard look at the evangelism of the church at the group level and at the individual level. Make sure you’re where you need to be doctrinally.

It’s really not that hard to get people into church. Maybe it’s because we live in America and there’s somewhat of a cultural sense that’s that what we “should” do. Just water down your doctrines. Have a 30 minute worship session designed to stir up the flesh followed by a 10 minute sermon telling people how awesome they are and how much God loves them. GUARANTEE you’ll pack the place out, but you won’t be doing what God called the church to do.

Just spread the gospel as often as you can in a way that’s consistent with Jesus’ example. Leave the rest up to God.

 

[T.Lex]

Yeah, I'm not even sure how to approach an answer to the question about "growth." (As a Catholic, I've seen mass attendance ebb and flow over the years.)

I think the real answer lies in the question about community. Do more in the community. Host stuff like barbecues, or food trucks, or fish frys during Lent. (Ok, maybe that last one is overly specific.)

Get the members to volunteer in the community. Do food drives or collect coats for the needy. Be ambassadors for Christ. Express to people the benefits of belief.

Give them hope if they are world-weary.

 

[foszoe]

The last Clancy novel I read was when the plane crashed....you mean there's been more? Maybe time to book shop

Well, I'm reading other non-biblical books, so the Jack Ryan Jr. Novel over the weekend (500+ pages) should count .

 

[historian]

Here is the list!

https://www.goodreads.com/series/171703-jack-ryan-universe

 

[thunderchicken]

That is a very slippery slope, and I would warn against you changing things just for the specific reason of growth. We’re not responsible for church growth. 1 Corinthians 3:6-8. We’re responsible for spreading the gospel. God gives the increase. If your church has become stagnant then I would take a hard look at the evangelism of the church at the group level and at the individual level. Make sure you’re where you need to be doctrinally.

It’s really not that hard to get people into church. Maybe it’s because we live in America and there’s somewhat of a cultural sense that’s that what we “should” do. Just water down your doctrines. Have a 30 minute worship session designed to stir up the flesh followed by a 10 minute sermon telling people how awesome they are and how much God loves them. GUARANTEE you’ll pack the place out, but you won’t be doing what God called the church to do.

Just spread the gospel as often as you can in a way that’s consistent with Jesus’ example. Leave the rest up to God.

Yeah we have already unanimously agreed we will not be watering down the doctrine or the message. We believe sometimes the truth hurts and we need to hear it, as it is written. And I agree that its our job to spread the gospel. Our churches mission statement (and Confrences statement) is to love God, love people and make disciples. And that's exactly what we want to do. We are taking a new focus on putting more effort into reaching people through outreach. Some of that will be done through our food pantry and our community day (cookout, games, etc). All too often it seems our guests come only for the food and won't stick around to get any spiritual food. At our last community day (In Sept) we had a huge turnout and we were able to feed many people. But as soon as they ate they left. And we saw what turned into a free food drive through. People came in made a plate of food and walked right out the door. Which is ok because it may have planted a seed and may have met a need just by loving them and feeding them. We want to do more for our community, and so we are looking for more ways to do that in a way to share the message. I feel like we are struggling to reach our kids/youth. More programs are great but funding them is the obstacle when we have so few people. And many of those people are either seniors on a fixed income..most of which I am confident are tithing. But we also have many who are very low income or on govt assistance who seem to believe they can't afford to give (time or money). Maybe I'm wrong, in my thinking. But I feel like we need to reach more people (plant more seeds) if we want to reap the harvest of bringing more people to Christ.
Btw thanks for reminding me of 1 1Chorinthians 3:6-8. Makes a good point

 

[thunderchicken]

Yeah, I'm not even sure how to approach an answer to the question about "growth." (As a Catholic, I've seen mass attendance ebb and flow over the years.)

I think the real answer lies in the question about community. Do more in the community. Host stuff like barbecues, or food trucks, or fish frys during Lent. (Ok, maybe that last one is overly specific.)

Get the members to volunteer in the community. Do food drives or collect coats for the needy. Be ambassadors for Christ. Express to people the benefits of belief.

Give them hope if they are world-weary.

I agree and we want ro do more in the community. But I am looking for ideas how to do it. Growth will come with outreach.
As for volunteers, the obstacle is not burning people out by overwhelming them. At our church at least, I see about 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people. We need to get more of our own people involved too

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Maybe I'm wrong, in my thinking. But I feel like we need to reach more people (plant more seeds) if we want to reap the harvest of bringing more people to Christ.

You’re dead on. Community outreach is a great thing. Our church is in a small, mainly low-to-middle income town with a huge drug problem. We also get the occasional person that’s just there for money or food and we try to be as wise as we can when distributing funds that way. We’ve had people complain to us about free baskets of food delivered to their door, but you can’t let that stuff get you down. Pure religion is taking care of widows and orphans. The dead churches I’ve been to are normally filled with an older generation that is content with the way things are and aren’t focused on outreach. That’s a surefire recipe for God to take his hand of blessing off of your house of worship.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

At our church at least, I see about 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people.

That’s true across 99% of churches.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Yeah we have already unanimously agreed we will not be watering down the doctrine or the message. We believe sometimes the truth hurts and we need to hear it, as it is written. And I agree that its our job to spread the gospel. Our churches mission statement (and Confrences statement) is to love God, love people and make disciples. And that's exactly what we want to do. We are taking a new focus on putting more effort into reaching people through outreach. Some of that will be done through our food pantry and our community day (cookout, games, etc). All too often it seems our guests come only for the food and won't stick around to get any spiritual food. At our last community day (In Sept) we had a huge turnout and we were able to feed many people. But as soon as they ate they left. And we saw what turned into a free food drive through. People came in made a plate of food and walked right out the door. Which is ok because it may have planted a seed and may have met a need just by loving them and feeding them. We want to do more for our community, and so we are looking for more ways to do that in a way to share the message. I feel like we are struggling to reach our kids/youth. More programs are great but funding them is the obstacle when we have so few people. And many of those people are either seniors on a fixed income..most of which I am confident are tithing. But we also have many who are very low income or on govt assistance who seem to believe they can't afford to give (time or money). Maybe I'm wrong, in my thinking. But I feel like we need to reach more people (plant more seeds) if we want to reap the harvest of bringing more people to Christ.
Btw thanks for reminding me of 1 1Chorinthians 3:6-8. Makes a good point

One of the things our church does on Wednesdays is to provide a supper before Wednesday night services. It was supposed to be self supporting with all "profits" going to support childrens' programs. We had a board meeting last night and it's time to set a 2019 budget and this issue was brought up. Over time, fewer paying adults are attending dinner while more and more non-paying children are coming.

Having kids show up and participating in the activities our childrens' ministry team is doing is hopefully planting more seeds than simply providing a free baby sitting service for mom and dad's date night. But many of the kids attending either never come back on Sundays or their parents attend other churches, so...who knows. I don't think anyone would say a word but when budgets are tight, attendance and giving is down, and fruits are not being seen by the work, it causes some considerable introspection.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

One of the things our church does on Wednesdays is to provide a supper before Wednesday night services. It was supposed to be self supporting with all "profits" going to support childrens' programs. We had a board meeting last night and it's time to set a 2019 budget and this issue was brought up. Over time, fewer paying adults are attending dinner while more and more non-paying children are coming.

Having kids show up and participating in the activities our childrens' ministry team is doing is hopefully planting more seeds than simply providing a free baby sitting service for mom and dad's date night. But many of the kids attending either never come back on Sundays or their parents attend other churches, so...who knows. I don't think anyone would say a word but when budgets are tight, attendance and giving is down, and fruits are not being seen by the work, it causes some considerable introspection.

Had almost this exact same situation at our church recently. It was decided that it’s as much a ministry for the local kids, many of whom have reeaally bad home lives, as it was a fellowship opportunity for the members.