CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[breakingcontact]

Sooooo.... you don't make choices? Like, you're on autopilot?

I don't mean to be facetious with this. I just don't understand the implication.

I don't make choices? I chose to eat lasagna for lunch.

Choose to "accept God"? That places my salvation in my hands, thank God I don't have such a choice to make.

If we were in charge of our salvation, we would assuredly lose it.

 

[Dead Duck]

I have something you guys should read.
It's a good book.

https://www.amazon.com/Bible-Large-...preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

 

[T.Lex]

I don't make choices? I chose to eat lasagna for lunch.

Choose to "accept God"? That places my salvation in my hands, thank God I don't have such a choice to make.

If we were in charge of our salvation, we would assuredly lose it.

Ah, I think there's a lag in our reading/responding. I'll wait until you see my next post and respond to it.

 

[T.Lex]

I have a book that you guys should read.
It's a good book.

Large print?

Seriously?

I'm not THAT old.

(But why do they keep making menus with smaller and smaller print?)

 

[breakingcontact]

Regarding God forcing us against our will, into his kingdom, that is the only way any of us are getting in.

Our will is what? This world and sin.

His will be done, not ours.

 

[Dead Duck]

Large print?

Seriously?

I'm not THAT old.

(But why do they keep making menus with smaller and smaller print?)

Large print means a larger book. Chicks dig a guy that can read a big book. Well, blonds do anyway.

 

[breakingcontact]

I'm not arguing about any of that.

Do you not make choices in your life?

Sure, I make choices.

I cannot make the choice to jump over my house and succeed in doing so.

There are limits due to our nature.

Jump over my house? Choose God? How could I, due to my nature, make such a choice and succeed.

I am limited in what I can choose and there isn't anything I can do about it.

More God.

Less me.

 

[T.Lex]

Regarding God forcing us against our will, into his kingdom, that is the only way any of us are getting in.

Our will is what? This world and sin.

His will be done, not ours.

Sure, I make choices.

I cannot make the choice to jump over my house and succeed in doing so.

There are limits due to our nature.

Jump over my house? Choose God? How could I, due to my nature, make such a choice and succeed.

I am limited in what I can choose and there isn't anything I can do about it.

More God.

Less me.

So, the first thing to jump out at me is perhaps the key. God doesn't force us to do anything. I truly believe that. I'm having a difficult time connecting with how that idea - that God forces us to accept Him - is even biblical. I'll have to let that sit for awhile.

As for the other points, the "more God, less me" certainly resonates as a shared approach. The more we accept God and His will, the better. But that's a ... choice. Ok ok ok, I'm still letting it sit.

 

[Dead Duck]

Isn't free will grand.
No, really...

 

[foszoe]

I call them medieval simply because that is where they originate. The seeds of most western theology are based in Augustine (4th century) including the crime and punishment paradigm but it wasn't until Anselm that satisfaction becomes a part of the equation and that was post-Schism in the 11 century which is smack dab in the middle of the middle ages. The Augustine/Anselm foundation paved the path for the crime/punishment view to dominate Christianity in the west.Early saints writing about it usually would say that it appeals to our baser instincts, namely self preservation, and may suffice to get us to begin our journey along the Way but it can cause one to lose sight of the true purpose of the Christian life, theosis or deification. The sickness/healing paradigm is more representative of ancient Christianity.

As one writer put it, salvation is being saved from, but it is also being saved for. These can not be separated, but when someone asks "Are you saved" from what paradigm are they usually operating? My anecdotal experience is the first. It is by allowing these to be separated that, I believe, that Christians then get into discussions about faith vs works, how does one know they are saved, etc.

I'm sure you have read much of what the reformers have written.

You call them medieval but surely you read how many of them refer back to 3rd and 4th century saints such as Augustine.

I sure wish you'd advocate for your Orthodox tradition more and attack the faith traditions of others less.

 

[Ziggidy]

From what non-sinful part of my innately sinful being, can I make such a choice?

In all honesty, I cannot answer that for you. It is through faith you are saved. When I turned my life over to the Lord, I knew without a doubt that it was time for me to turn from my ways. To this day I am greatly blessed with His never ending grace. Thank goodness it is never ending because I stumble and fall daily.

 

[Ziggidy]

While I think I understand the comment you are replying to, I'm really not sure I understand your comment.

As an explanation why this thread is important to me, this conversation between the 2 of you reflects an approach so far removed from what I'm used to, that I think there's a huge set of data that I'm just missing.

Like, my first reaction was "free will." But then I thought of mentioning our soul - that part of God that is present in everyone. That part that does yearn to be reunited with God. It is sometimes manifested in our conscience.

Or am I completely missing the mark on this?

Personally I think you explained it pretty well, except I do not believe it is our conscious. I believe our "spirit" bears witness to the Holy Spirit. God did breath His spirit into man, it is up to us if we listen to it. Free will (freedom) is often difficult to manage properly. Some never do and some get caught up in a different spirit.

 

[Ziggidy]

I didn't do good works and earn God's choosing.
I didn't walk an isle and somehow choose to accept God.
I didn't perfectly adhere to some set of rules.
God, out of his mercy and out of nothing special in me, saved me.

Amen! I received undeserving grace. God is good.

 

[Ziggidy]

Regarding God forcing us against our will, into his kingdom, that is the only way any of us are getting in.

Our will is what? This world and sin.

His will be done, not ours.

You have turned the corner here a bit. Are you suggesting we cannot fall from grace? We choose to place our faith in Jesus and through this faith we are saved. Not sure how to follow you here.

It sounds like you are suggesting that God chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. If that is the case, how does He choose and what hope does anyone have in Christ?

 

[breakingcontact]

In all honesty, I cannot answer that for you. It is through faith you are saved. When I turned my life over to the Lord, I knew without a doubt that it was time for me to turn from my ways. To this day I am greatly blessed with His never ending grace. Thank goodness it is never ending because I stumble and fall daily.

It is through grace that we are saved through faith.

 

[breakingcontact]

You have turned the corner here a bit. Are you suggesting we cannot fall from grace? We choose to place our faith in Jesus and through this faith we are saved. Not sure how to follow you here.

It sounds like you are suggesting that God chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. If that is the case, how does He choose and what hope does anyone have in Christ?

Perseverance of the saints. God will continue the good work he begins in some.

On your 2nd point, read Romans 9, in particular 11-21.

Jacob he loved, Esau he hated.

We hear a lot about God's love, but God also hates.

 

[abnk]

I don't make choices? I chose to eat lasagna for lunch.

Choose to "accept God"? That places my salvation in my hands, thank God I don't have such a choice to make.

If we were in charge of our salvation, we would assuredly lose it.

If our choices are inconsequential, you're saying that God chooses for us? If so, how does God choose who joins Him and who doesn't? Further, what is the point of this temporary life?

 

[T.Lex]

Personally I think you explained it pretty well, except I do not believe it is our conscious. I believe our "spirit" bears witness to the Holy Spirit. God did breath His spirit into man, it is up to us if we listen to it. Free will (freedom) is often difficult to manage properly. Some never do and some get caught up in a different spirit.

Just want to make sure we're clear on the bolded word. I said "conscience" and you said "conscious." Those are 2 different things, for some good reasons.

Otherwise, I think we're saying basically the same thing on this point.

 

[foszoe]

I don't make choices? I chose to eat lasagna for lunch.

Choose to "accept God"? That places my salvation in my hands, thank God I don't have such a choice to make.

If we were in charge of our salvation, we would assuredly lose it.

Does God know beforehand you will have lasagna?

If so can you elaborate on why that choice is not considered predestined but salvation is?

 

[Ziggidy]

I find all of this interesting. How we all differ on many points, yet we all agree on many points. I'm not predestined guy.