Asked to leave for OC

[Stschil]

IMHO, unless Kroger or any other business subsists soley on its own dime, with no assistance from the state in any manner (tax breaks, subsidies, etc.), it is NOT private property.

Just because I feel like being obstinate:

How often do you eschew your "personal exemption" when filing your taxes?
If you've taken advantage of it, I would assume by your statement that you are not an individual unto yourself and are therefore Government property as well.

 

[blamecharles]

There are a lot of uneducated, simple-minded people who post on this forum. For the most part, it's the same on any website forum. There is nothing wrong with being uneducated or simple-minded; it describes the majority of Americans. We come here from a quite gregarious background of experiences, educations and intellects. With that preface.....

We can carry openly in a lot of places. We can do so without infringing on anyone else in many of them. However, there are places where open carry is trumped by another, MUCH MORE IMPORTANT right: Property rights. If you want to carry openly on a public sidewalk, you can do so all day long w/o infringing on someone else's rights. The moment you enter a private business, however, you bring your openly carried gun into an environment where other patrons may exit the store solely because you are there. If so, you have cost the merchant business. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CARRY A FIREARM, OPENLY OR CONCEALED, ON PRIVATE PROPERTY. The property owner, or their employees who are charged with protecting the bottom-line of the business, can and SHOULD ask you to leave if it is their belief that your presence is costing them a dime in potential profit. No, they are NOT going against "Indiana law", Kroger policy, etc. Educate yourselves before you spew such nonsense which immediately categorizes you with the uneducated.

No, it is NOT Kroger policy that you can carry openly in their store. Kroger has no stated policy either way. Kroger's property rights must ALWAYS trump your 2nd Amendment rights. Always. It doesn't take a store manager to ask you to leave. The moment you are asked to leave by an employee of the store, you are legally obligated to do so. There is ZERO reason for someone to openly carry a gun in a grocery store. Someone who does so not only demonstrates an intellect & maturity insufficient to be carrying a gun in the first place, they also become the enemy of all who responsibly carry a gun. It is IDIOTS who are constantly trying to provoke by openly carrying their gun, so they can be somebody, who threatens the gun rights of all of us. It is this nonsense that will eventually cost all of us the right to carry, open or not. Use some common sense.

vvv in response to ^^^ Yes i am going to quote myself because its the same rant.

Get it through YOUR thick head. I don't carry open to try to be an attention seeking, kick getting, lead slinging, bada$$. If that was the case then CC must make you a sniveling, hiding, leadless, whiner. Stop with the whining about how I carry, I don't carry how you carry, I wouldnt tell you that you should carry any way that was uncomfortable to you. If I was COMFORTABLE CC I might think about it, but since I don't care to hide it I won't. I don't NEED to hide it.

Let me be clear I am not calling any CC'ers any names just bringing up a point. OC/CC just as long as you carry.

As i see it i have been poked and probed by our government enough while getting my CDL Hazmat endorsement, Military Service, LTCH, etc. that by now they have deemed me to be a proper person. If you are scared or bothered by me carrying a handgun and have no problem with me driving a semi with 9000 gallons of fuel, well that is your own problem.

 

[Floater]

So, not to actually go back on topic here or anything, but has there been any update from Kroger on this, Relatively Ninja?

 

[Hayseed_40]

I sometimes lose my offense if I set it down somewhere.

I have plenty of offenses to go around.

 

[Hayseed_40]

It means they just couldn't bear to leave the offense laying there for someone else to come along and stumble over.

By picking it up and taking it with you, you make the world a safer place for others.

so it is kind of like dog poop on the sidewalk...

 

[Relatively Ninja]

So, not to actually go back on topic here or anything, but has there been any update from Kroger on this, Relatively Ninja?

Kroger? This thread has nothing to do with Kroger, it's just another OC/CC thread with a clever disguise.

Seriously though, there has been a resolution. Even better, it's a favorable one! Yesterday I received a phone call from someone up the chain at Kroger, and after a short game of phone tag I was able to talk to him this morning. The man I spoke to (we'll call him Tony) told me that Kroger does side with state law on citizens carrying weapons. He said that although the state does not specify how one may carry their weapon, the store (in accordance with their private property rights) will ask the person with the weapon to leave if they receive a complaint from another customer. While I don't agree with this facet of their corporate policy, I can at least understand where they're coming from.

I'm going to stop here and make this very, very clear. Kroger has no problem with you open carrying, but they will ask you to leave if they receive a complaint from another customer. This applies not just to firearms, but any weapons: gun, knife, rope dart, mace, whatever! They won't ask you to leave unless a customer approaches management with a complaint.

I told Tony that I had explicitly asked the manager and the security guard if their was a complaint against me and they had both said no. I told him that I believe I was asked to leave because the security guard did not fully understand the laws and policies and therefore gave the manager incorrect or misleading information. He apologized for the incident and said he would contact the company responsible for providing security to make sure they are properly training their security guards. He also told me that today he would be visiting the Kroger where this happened, and he would make sure to reiterate corporate policy regarding weapons with the entire management staff.

Honestly, I'm pretty happy with the way this turned out! My assumption that Kroger respects the right to carry a weapon was confirmed; now I know exactly what their policy is. Although I wish they would continue to respect 2nd amendment rights even after receiving a complaint from another customer, I can at least follow that logic. Furthermore, I received an apology and an assurance that both management and security staff will receive a little reeducation on Kroger policies and state laws.

 

[Stschil]

Kroger? This thread has nothing to do with Kroger, it's just another OC/CC thread with a clever disguise.

Seriously though, there has been a resolution. Even better, it's a favorable one! Yesterday I received a phone call from someone up the chain at Kroger, and after a short game of phone tag I was able to talk to him this morning. The man I spoke to (we'll call him Tony) told me that Kroger does side with state law on citizens carrying weapons. He said that although the state does not specify how one may carry their weapon, the store (in accordance with their private property rights) will ask the person with the weapon to leave if they receive a complaint from another customer. While I don't agree with this facet of their corporate policy, I can at least understand where they're coming from.

I'm going to stop here and make this very, very clear. Kroger has no problem with you open carrying, but they will ask you to leave if they receive a complaint from another customer. This applies not just to firearms, but any weapons: gun, knife, rope dart, mace, whatever! They won't ask you to leave unless a customer approaches management with a complaint.

I told Tony that I had explicitly asked the manager and the security guard if their was a complaint against me and they had both said no. I told him that I believe I was asked to leave because the security guard did not fully understand the laws and policies and therefore gave the manager incorrect or misleading information. He apologized for the incident and said he would contact the company responsible for providing security to make sure they are properly training their security guards. He also told me that today he would be visiting the Kroger where this happened, and he would make sure to reiterate corporate policy regarding weapons with the entire management staff.

Honestly, I'm pretty happy with the way this turned out! My assumption that Kroger respects the right to carry a weapon was confirmed; now I know exactly what their policy is. Although I wish they would continue to respect 2nd amendment rights even after receiving a complaint from another customer, I can at least follow that logic. Furthermore, I received an apology and an assurance that both management and security staff will receive a little reeducation on Kroger policies and state laws.

Nice

 

[SideArmed]

Good to hear they followed up on all this. I can now go back to Kroger and do my shopping.

 

[eldirector]

Thanks for the update RN!

So, if you complain about the original complainant, do you BOTH get asked to leave?

About as good of an outcome as you could have asked for.

 

[Relatively Ninja]

Also, I have been following this thread pretty closely. I will not feed the trolls by responding to their narrow-minded points of view regarding the relationship between my ego and my style of carry.

I will, however, tell goinggreyfast that he needs to cut it out with the insults! I know I spend far less time hanging out with convicted felons than he does. Who's the hooligan now??

Also, thank you to those who were able to respond to the more ludicrous arguments with level-headed reason when I was merely watching from the sidelines. It's much easier for me to read a thread on my phone than it is for me to post on it.

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

Nicely done RN! +1

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Kroger? This thread has nothing to do with Kroger, it's just another OC/CC thread with a clever disguise.

Seriously though, there has been a resolution. Even better, it's a favorable one! Yesterday I received a phone call from someone up the chain at Kroger, and after a short game of phone tag I was able to talk to him this morning. The man I spoke to (we'll call him Tony) told me that Kroger does side with state law on citizens carrying weapons. He said that although the state does not specify how one may carry their weapon, the store (in accordance with their private property rights) will ask the person with the weapon to leave if they receive a complaint from another customer. While I don't agree with this facet of their corporate policy, I can at least understand where they're coming from.

I'm going to stop here and make this very, very clear. Kroger has no problem with you open carrying, but they will ask you to leave if they receive a complaint from another customer. This applies not just to firearms, but any weapons: gun, knife, rope dart, mace, whatever! They won't ask you to leave unless a customer approaches management with a complaint.

I told Tony that I had explicitly asked the manager and the security guard if their was a complaint against me and they had both said no. I told him that I believe I was asked to leave because the security guard did not fully understand the laws and policies and therefore gave the manager incorrect or misleading information. He apologized for the incident and said he would contact the company responsible for providing security to make sure they are properly training their security guards. He also told me that today he would be visiting the Kroger where this happened, and he would make sure to reiterate corporate policy regarding weapons with the entire management staff.

Honestly, I'm pretty happy with the way this turned out! My assumption that Kroger respects the right to carry a weapon was confirmed; now I know exactly what their policy is. Although I wish they would continue to respect 2nd amendment rights even after receiving a complaint from another customer, I can at least follow that logic. Furthermore, I received an apology and an assurance that both management and security staff will receive a little reeducation on Kroger policies and state laws.

My compliments for the way you handled this situation. I'm not real happy with the "whiner always wins, no matter what" policy, but at least they are willing to oblige state law. Thanks for posting the resolution of your complaint and good for them for their timely response.

 

[KG1]

Well I guess that's settled then. I would only have one question though and that is. Does this same policy of asking someone to leave based on a complaint also apply if somebody were to complain that someone smelled bad or was wearing to much cologne and or perfume?

 

[MikeDVB]

Too bad Kroger doesn't have super expensive items... Walk in OC, pick up the most expensive item you can find and keep it in your cart as you walk around... When they ask you to leave... Go "Oh, I guess I won't be buying this then..."

 

[Cpl. Klinger]

The man I spoke to (we'll call him Tony) told me that Kroger does side with state law on citizens carrying weapons. He said that although the state does not specify how one may carry their weapon, the store (in accordance with their private property rights) will ask the person with the weapon to leave if they receive a complaint from another customer. While I don't agree with this facet of their corporate policy, I can at least understand where they're coming from. (rest snipped for brevity)

If who you talked to is who I think it is, and I'm about 99.5% certain I am right, then whatever he told you is not only true, but really will be followed up on. This person is a stand up guy, from my dealings with him. And like I have said here and in another thread, when we do this kind of thing, we don't have a lot of choice, and often times don't agree with the policy/choice, but to keep a roof over the families heads, we have to make that decision. I would just hope that as long as we can act respectfully towards one another in a retail location, we can always debate the finer points here and elsewhere. Preferably over cold libations to boot.

 

[Tydeeh22]

Too bad Kroger doesn't have super expensive items... Walk in OC, pick up the most expensive item you can find and keep it in your cart as you walk around... When they ask you to leave... Go "Oh, I guess I won't be buying this then..."

150 dollar gift set of wild turkey.. its at my local krogers.

 

[rgrimm01]

Too bad Kroger doesn't have super expensive items... Walk in OC, pick up the most expensive item you can find and keep it in your cart as you walk around... When they ask you to leave... Go "Oh, I guess I won't be buying this then..."

I believe you could amass quite a sum if you were to put several packages of steaks in your cart.

Well I guess that's settled then. I would only have one question though and that is. Does this same policy of asking someone to leave based on a complaint also apply if somebody were to complain...

I was thinking the same thing. What if you were to go in and complain that someone was not armed. Would the manager be forced, as a condition of following corporate policy that must be adhered to by the letter, to have that offending person(s) immediately leave the premises? Or does that policy just apply to licensed proper people legally carrying firearms?

I also wonder if a manager was bent on not having any OC firearms in the store could merely say that there has been a complaint. Sounds like a easy way out that is beyond refute...

 

[goinggreyfast]

Also, I have been following this thread pretty closely. I will not feed the trolls by responding to their narrow-minded points of view regarding the relationship between my ego and my style of carry.

I will, however, tell goinggreyfast that he needs to cut it out with the insults! I know I spend far less time hanging out with convicted felons than he does. Who's the hooligan now??

Also, thank you to those who were able to respond to the more ludicrous arguments with level-headed reason when I was merely watching from the sidelines. It's much easier for me to read a thread on my phone than it is for me to post on it.

 

[Kutnupe14]

IMHO, unless Kroger or any other business subsists soley on its own dime, with no assistance from the state in any manner (tax breaks, subsidies, etc.), it is NOT private property.

Do you really want to view it that way? Lol, you're opening a lot of "doors" (literally), if that is your belief.

Put this guy in office!

 

[Kutnupe14]

Great point. How many of the mature trained police have been in combat? actually had to use their weapon on anything else but a paper target? Get shot back at? Experiance out weighs training by a long shot. (no pun intended) I spent 11 years serving this country all over the world to include Iraq before being medically discharged for injuries from being in Iraq. I have WAY more experiance and training with weapons, not just handguns and shotguns, than most LEO's of course excluding those who served.

You want to see a EGO or POWER TRIP? Tell a cop he is wrong about the gun laws that he thinks he knows or is hoping you are an ignorant gun owner that doesn't know your rights. Heck for that matter interupt him when he is talking. There are MANY immature cops out there and there are MANY good ones. Two of my brother-in-laws are LEO one is a Major with IPD which most of you have seen on TV and the other is a detective with Fishers. Both Great LEO's and done a lot for their community.

No LEO bashing intended just a statement. How many LEO's take the job because they want to help people or the community (I know there are those that do) but how many take the job in HOPES of busting the bad guy? Whether it be by a chase and tackle or by a shooting. (I know I'm going to catch flack for that statement but there are a few who do feel that way, a few video's on this forum prove that) Now if that's not a ego power trip then I don't know what is.

Call the kettle black when it's black but remember there are steel and brass kettles as well. You can't group ALL LEO's into a group and you can't group ALL LTCH holders. A bad apple is just that a bad apple but we are not apples and are capable of making the right choices reguardless of what others may or may not do.

You make a number of excellent points, but I'm going to illustrate the other side of the coin. Those in the military are without questions superior with firearms... firearms of the long variety. Indiana law allows one to OC a long gun sans a permit, so there's your first option. As for handguns. I have yet to see the military guy, outside of SF, that is an excellent marksman on military training alone. Let's be honest, the military doesn't train with a focus on pistols. In theater, 1Sgts, XOs, and COs and a few other MOSs are issued them. That said, in my experience, those with a military background, can shoot the heck out of a rifle, but often seem a bit awkward with a handgun. It's a running joke at my PD, that the military guys always ask if they can ditch the glock and simply carry an AR.

Now in when taking combat experience, there's NO other person I'd rather have by my side when the SHTF than a combat hardened vet. The caveat is, in combat. The U.S. isn't a combat zone, yet, and I don't relish the idea of treating American citizens as if they were residents of Kabul and Baghdad. There is a entirely different mindset from law enforcement and the military. LEOs often put themselves in situations, by policy, that no sane military guy would even think is tactically sound. And trust me, the Marines and Army guys on my shift won't let you hear the end of it. I'm not going to search every person I come into contact with (nor can I), I'm not going to stop every car "just because" (nor can I).

As mentioned before, I want the combat vet on my side in certain situations; a verbal domestic? That depends, but I'd be apprehensive if I was with a guy fresh out of the service. A bunch of ex-Mil guys love to bark out orders. In the sandbox, I'm sure that often yield good "results." Not so much here. All need do is look at the endless amounts of complaint thread to know that my words ring true.

The problem is that many vets try to translate their skills over to law enforcement, which obviously isn't the best idea. For this reason I have always thought that ex-Mil guys get a lil extra training to "take it down a notch."

There are tons of ex-Mil guys that do excellent work in LE, tons. But there are also that segment that needs to understand when to turn it "off," and when yo turn it "on."

In conclusion, and to bring this back on topic, if one believe that there is any similarity in carrying in public, here, versus in a war zone then I would respectfully have to disagree.