AARs Season 4: SUN, 18 AUG 2013 NWI Meet & Shoot

[sadclownwp]

So after reading all the Notifications I had this morning concerning this kid we have been talking about, and the amount of rep I have received bringing to light what most people didn't want to offend anyone and talk about. I'm thinking we ban this kid from Meet and Shoot events for 2 years or until he is 15, whichever comes last. This should give the child ample time to learn range safety and some manners. I wish I could add a poll to this post and we could take a vote.

In all honesty, I hope I never see this kid again. I don't think he ever deserves to come back to a Meet and Shoot after being told he can't shoot my guns, and then asking others if he can shoot my guns in hopes someone would say yes.

 

[subtlesixer03]

You really dont like children do you Andrew. What I did see of him seems to me to be more of issues with the parents honestly. He needs to be taught proper safety and maners but banning him for 2 years seems extreme to me.

 

[sadclownwp]

You really dont like children do you Andrew. What I did see of him seems to me to be more of issues with the parents honestly. He needs to be taught proper safety and maners but banning him for 2 years seems extreme to me.

Did you not read the first post I made about this, I praised Lone's son for being an exceptional young man. My dislike of children has nothing to do with this, because at the point you can show responsibility with firearms you can be considered a young adult. So the problem is not with all the children. The problem really seems to be stemming from just this one child. Ask Tstar about this kid, he really pushes her and Kevin's limits. Or ask TV about how annoying this kid was getting. Couple annoyance with this kids lack of safety, and that makes for a bad time, and from what some of us have talked about outside of the posts, this kid as he is now, makes for less fun being had by the adults.

Safety can be taught and learned, but for a kid to go around asking other adults to shoot my guns after he was told no is inexcusable. It means this kid can't be trusted. Do we really want a kid who can't be trusted around our own personal firearms?

As far as a problem with the parenting, of course there is a problem with the parenting. I thought that was so obvious, it didn't need to be mentioned.

 

[GhostofWinter]

Ok. I think I've let enough time go by that I can reply and it not seem like a knee jerk reaction.

The young boy in question was not only unsafe, but also rude. I'll get to that in a minute, but first lets talk able his gun handling skills...or lack thereof. I agree that this is not just his fault, but also a lack of proper training and/ supervision, so I put the blame on the parent/guardian. I personally observed the grandfather(??) on multiple occasions going forward of the line to police up brass and spent shells. Wile I applaude the fact that he was trying to pick up, I cringed everytime he stepped over the line while people were still firing. There were several times when he was asked if it was ok to fire. He said yes, then proceeded to cross the line again as soon as the other person started firing again. We as a group have absolutely no problem calling a cold range to police brass or spend shotgun hulls. Perhaps the problem is not understanding the idea of nobody forward of the line when it's hot.

I personally observed too many instances of unsafe gun handling by said child to name. It was so bad I packed up and left a bit earlier than I normally would have because of it. And I suspect that I was not the only one that did this.

The other problem with said child was outright rudeness. Ms LoneHoosier and LadyGhost were gracious enough to take care of the cooking duties and were in the process of getting the food ready when said child came up and grabbed a hot dog and was complaining 'where are the hamburgers???' He was told that the food wasn't ready yet and that he would have to wait. The grandfather(??) came up and complained because the ladies scolded the boy. THAT shows me that the young boy has a LONG WAY to go before I feel comfortable with him handling a firearm, and the parents/guardians as well to be honest given how they allow him to run around. Once the food was ready and folks lined up for the hot dogs, burgers, brats and bacon. The same clan proceeded to snatch up well over half of the bacon before anyone else was able to even get some. I personally never realized that there was even bacon there. By clan I don't just mean the child, but adults as well. Leading by example I guess.

now, what do I think should happen? I think that they should be allowed to attend one more event on 'probation' of sorts. This might have just been a one time incident. If it happens again I feel that they should be asked to leave and not attend anymore, or at least til it can be shown that they can handle firearms in a safe manner. A completed NRA class would work for me.

i also feel that we should push the issue of the parent/guardian must be in close proximity of the child at all times. No allowing the free rein. I realize that this isn't easy. I've had my now 14 year old there last year at 13 and to be honest I got very very little shooting in because either I of LadyGhost were her shadow when she was on the line. If I/we weren't directly supervising her, we where within arms reach of her to grab her she started to do something unsafe.

That was the bad and the ugly. Now for the good.
It was a beautiful day for a trip to the range. It wasn't real warm, and there was a bit of a breeze. It was good to see a few people there that I haven't seen in a while. Also good to meet some new folks. I got to shoot a couple of things that I want now, but will drain my wallet...both in the cost of it as well as ammo. LOL

 

[sadclownwp]

Rep'd

 

[melensdad]

WOW, glad I missed this one.

This spring & summer has been totally hell for me/my family with the surgery on Melen's back and the VERY LONG recovery. I figured the very first chance that I had at getting to a Meet & Shoot is to get to the September shoot.

Sounds to me like the "grandfather" and the "kid" both should be banned from the next Meet & Shoot. It might be a very good idea to set up 2 volunteer Range Officers for the next event too. That way there will be someone who can call a COLD RANGE, who can stop action at a station, who can take corrective action, etc. Nobody likes to be 'the jerk' and sometimes Range Officers get blamed for enforcing rules, but honestly it seems like we need to have someone stand and watch, and potentially act.

I know that I, and a few others, have stood facing the line at past Meet & Shoots while others have moved up for short range practice. (that practice is no longer allowed, but back when it was some of us acted as safety officers) That may be a simplistic safety option, but it is one of the functions that a Range Officer can provide for added safety. Maybe we have rotating Range Officers so no one person is the RO at 2 events in a row?

Anyway, looks like if I have to miss an event, this past event was a great one to miss.

 

[GhostofWinter]

WOW, glad I missed this one.

This spring & summer has been totally hell for me/my family with the surgery on Melen's back and the VERY LONG recovery. I figured the very first chance that I had at getting to a Meet & Shoot is to get to the September shoot.

Sounds to me like the "grandfather" and the "kid" both should be banned from the next Meet & Shoot. It might be a very good idea to set up 2 volunteer Range Officers for the next event too. That way there will be someone who can call a COLD RANGE, who can stop action at a station, who can take corrective action, etc. Nobody likes to be 'the jerk' and sometimes Range Officers get blamed for enforcing rules, but honestly it seems like we need to have someone stand and watch, and potentially act.

I know that I, and a few others, have stood facing the line at past Meet & Shoots while others have moved up for short range practice. That may be a simplistic safety option, but it is one of the functions that a Range Officer can provide for added safety. Maybe we have rotating Range Officers so no one person is the RO at 2 events in a row?

Anyway, looks like if I have to miss an event, this past event was a great one to miss.

I don't know about banning them right away. I'm all for giving a person a second chance. As for the RO's, I am in agreement AND disagreement. While I agree that we need to do something, I'm not sure a designated jerk(LOL) is the answer either. Maybe have a set of rules or expectations for those that attend need to adhere to? At this point I don't what we need to do, just that we need to do something.

 

[melensdad]

I don't know about banning them right away. I'm all for giving a person a second chance. As for the RO's, I am in agreement AND disagreement. While I agree that we need to do something, I'm not sure a designated jerk(LOL) is the answer either. Maybe have a set of rules or expectations for those that attend need to adhere to? At this point I don't what we need to do, just that we need to do something.

But don't we already have an unwritten set of rules/expectations that people:

• 1) follow Col. Jeff Cooper's 4 rules of gun safety,
• 2) treat other INGO members with respect,
• and 3) take responsibility for their children?

It seems pretty obvious that ALL 3 of those expectations were not met.

The child didn't follow gun safety rules.
The child didn't treat others with respect.
The parent/guardian didn't treat others with respect.
The parent/guardian didn't take responsibility for the child.

So maybe we need to have someone as a volunteer Range Officer at the next event? Or maybe someone needs to UN-invite the member (and child)?

I wasn't there, I don't know who the parties were, it just seems like everyone who posted about this child is in agreement that he was not well received and apparently the parent/guardian scolded the ladies who where gracious and kind enough to have cooked? Seriously WTF is up with that?

 

[turnandshoot4]

Hey everyone, thought I'd weigh in here.

I had a good time. We had to cut it short due to other obligations. It was good to make it out and see everyone, I don't get to make many of these. I'm glad everyone enjoyed the competition. I hope it brought a new aspect to people's thoughts on carrying.

Now for the issue with the child. I had a run in with the child but never an issue. I ran him on the line for the competition without issue. He was in a position to have an issue, and it was corrected at that time.

I cannot stress it enough, we must correct the issue on the spot. This is how we learn and grow. We must police our own.

 

[nozljockey]

I was there most of the day and I had a great time. I am not sure what child everyone is complaining about but in my opinion if the parents aren't policing their children then it's a golden opporunity to do it for them. I can not see the logic (or legality) of banning someone from an event held on a public range. I agree and I saw a few instances of people crossing the firing line. I stopped and made safe until they cleared. Personally, the concussion that was coming off some of the artillery kept me well back when not firing. In my opinion, a young man that has a strong interest in firearms but has not been instructed in their proper handling is exactly the type of youth our group should reach out to. In order perpetuate the sport, to inform and educate should be part of the goals of every responsible gun owner. One of the reasons it is so easy to demonize gun owners is because so many people lack basic knowledge of firearms. If you ban him, his interest in firearms will not go away, he will just take his bad habits some place else. So, I propose we train the young lad or we do nothing and let him become an obnoxious danger to the sport by which all non gun owners will judge us.

 

[the only Qualk]

Hey everyone, thought I'd weigh in here.

I had a good time. We had to cut it short due to other obligations. It was good to make it out and see everyone, I don't get to make many of these. I'm glad everyone enjoyed the competition. I hope it brought a new aspect to people's thoughts on carrying.

Now for the issue with the child. I had a run in with the child but never an issue. I ran him on the line for the competition without issue. He was in a position to have an issue, and it was corrected at that time.

I cannot stress it enough, we must correct the issue on the spot. This is how we learn and grow. We must police our own.

I was there most of the day and I had a great time. I am not sure what child everyone is complaining about but in my opinion if the parents aren't policing them then it's your opporunity to do it for them. I can not see the logic (or legality) of banning someone from a public range. In my opinion, a young man that has a strong interest in firearms, but has not been instructed in their proper handling is exactly the young people this group should reach out to. To perpetuate the sport, to inform and educate should be part of the goals. One of the reasons it is so easy to demonize gun owners is because so many people lack basic knowledge of firearms. The NRA sponsors all sorts of instruction for youth. If you ban him, his interest in firearms will not go away, he will just take his bad habits some place else. So, I propose we train the young lad.

I am in agreement with what you two. I was not sure how to say it but I think you guys said it well enough. If no one has taught him proper etiquette then as a gun community we should try to take a little time to teach the next generation of shooter. I agree the parents should have done so but we also should be looking out for our fellow gun owners.
It is unfortunate their was a bit of an altercation with the cooking staff. I would hope that both sides could have talked that out and resolved it quickly.
I realize we can not be expected to constantly do so or at least the same people continue doing so but as a gun forum we should inform the person/s who are not following proper safety or respect.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[armybrat1]

If you come to an event, and ANY disrespect is shown to the very people that are extending themselves to and for you, then your entire group should be politely asked to leave our event. However, as they are on public property, we could also ask the County Range Master to handle it, as it does involve the safety of the INGO members. I feel that our time on the range as a group should be a relaxing time for friends, family and good hearted, like minded people to come together to enjoy themselves, not a time to teach manners, or even range/weapon skills to children. Isn't that what the Youth Shoot is for?

 

[melensdad]

If you come to an event, and ANY disrespect is shown to the very people that are extending themselves to and for you, then your entire group should be politely asked to leave our event. However, as they are on public property, we could also ask the County Range Master to handle it, as it does involve the safety of the INGO members. I feel that our time on the range as a group should be a relaxing time for friends, family and good hearted, like minded people to come together to enjoy themselves, not a time to teach manners, or even range/weapon skills to children. Isn't that what the Youth Shoot is for?

I think most of us are more than willing to help teach gun safety.

The problem in this case is that the kid was apparently left to run on his own. If you come up to me with your kid and say that you'd like me to teach your kid gun safety then I'd gladly sit with your kid and work with him. At that point your kid would have heard you say that you want me to teach him. At that point I would have been legitimately appointed by you to teach your kid so your kid would understand that I am the instructor. But a kid on his own doesn't have to take 'lessons' from people that simply offer them. Worse yet, the parent/guardian didn't seem to care what the kid did on the shooting line so that gives the kid tacit consent to act as he did. Worse yet, the kid was told the truth by the ladies cooking his food and he didn't like the answer so he told his parent/guardian something that caused that parent/guardian to go admonish the ladies.

So much about what apparently happened smells like a 3 day old fish that I'm glad I wasn't there!

 

[armybrat1]

I couldn't agree more. I enjoy teaching kids about weapons, and safety. Unfortunately, I would hate to think that the "One Bad Apple" rules might apply here. Very sad.

 

[sadclownwp]

I couldn't agree more. I enjoy teaching kids about weapons, and safety. Unfortunately, I would hate to think that the "One Bad Apple" rules might apply here. Very sad.

I think the One Bad Apple rule should apply to children, they spoil, you throw them away. I would hate to see the kid in the pink shirt spoil Lone's Kid, that would be heartbreaking. No Child Left Behind laws don't work in schools, so I doubt they will work with Meet and Shoots. I say we take a Leave The Children Behind stance on days other than Youth Shoot days. You get one chance to bring a child to a Meet and Shoot. If they don't screw up, they can keep coming, if they screw up, then you leave them behind for 2 years or until they are 15 years old, whichever comes last.

 

[TheUziButton]

 

[nozljockey]

Let me get on my soap box one more time....we , gun owners, are the defenders of the second amendment. No one but us will protect that right. No one but us cares enough to defend that right. Our forefathers gave us that right to defend against tyranny and preserve liberty against evil. I find it sad we choose to handle the mis guidance of a little boy on the Internet rather than confronting it in it's time and place. How can anyone expect us to defend freedom if we won't even confront and correct a little boy? Is it any wonder why our gun rights are eroding?

 

[Wild Deuce]

Gentle reminder that this is a public forum and anyone can walk in, pull up a chair and listen.

Just to be clear, nobody IMHO has crossed any lines or said anything wrong/bad ... yet. I see potential though so I thought I would offer that gentle reminder. Now ... carry on ...

 

[armybrat1]

Let me get on my soap box one more time....we , gun owners, are the defenders of the second amendment. No one but us will protect that right. No one but us cares enough to defend that right. Our forefathers gave us that right to defend against tyranny and preserve liberty against evil. I find it sad we choose to handle the mis guidance of a little boy on the Internet rather than confronting it in it's time and place. How can anyone expect us to defend freedom if we won't even confront and correct a little boy? Is it any wonder why our gun rights are eroding?

In order to be able to handle this situation, we are referring the issue to one another on this forum. A forum is designed for this very thing, to be able to discuss and to debate how to handle situations that arise within our group, and to properly address these situations. This has nothing to do with our 2nd Amendment Rights, and everything to do with our 1st Amendment Rights of Freedom of Speech and to assemble peacefully. Of which, the boy in question and his family member had total disregard for, as they disrupted the peace at one of our events. When an unsupervised child wields a weapon and then accidently shoots himself or another, now THAT would erode our gun rights for certain! I guess it just comes down to what we would all like to do as a group...to exercise democracy.

 

[Wild Deuce]

I might as well throw in a question ...

Did anyone attempt any corrective action in a diplomatic manner? I wasn't there so I don't even know if it was possible. I understand that he was told "no" in regards to specific actions but did anyone attempt to instruct or even to talk to the parent/guardian? ...

"Hi! Mr. Smith? How are you? Is this your son/grandson, Johnny? Is this your first time here? Are you guys enjoying yourselves? Listen, you mind if we sit down over here for a minute? Johnny! .. would you join us for a minute? There's some stuff we need to go over real quick. ..."

​

Again, I wasn't there so I have no clue if this was even possible.