17-year-old CT girl taken from mother, forced to endure unwanted chemotherapy

[steveh_131]

Welcome to INGO.

It helps to understand that this the INGOtarian Science guru:

I challenge you to cite a single instance where I have ever quoted Jenny McCarthy or referenced her as an authority on any matter.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

we cannot create a laundry list of specific things that will warrant DCS intervention.

And it includes not providing things to your children, such as food, a clean house, warm clothing.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I challenge you to cite a single instance where I have ever quoted Jenny McCarthy or referenced her as an authority on any matter.

You are the only INGOtarian now? So noted.

 

[Bunnykid68]

And it includes not providing things to your children, such as food, a clean house, warm clothing.

Now you are telling me I need to clean my place up, sheeeeeshh, when will it stop?

 

[steveh_131]

It is the internet. We can argue about everything. But, to be intellectually honest, we cannot create a laundry list of specific things that will warrant DCS intervention. That is the truth of what KF is saying. The system is set up to provide due process. That system must be flexible enough to handle the infinite variety of human neglect, depravity, and abandonment.

A system this flexible will also necessarily be flexible enough to take children away from good parents as well.

Just as I am unwilling to remove our 2A liberties for the sake of 'the children', I am also unwilling to remove our medical liberties. I would even argue that they are more important.

There are other avenues for helping children in need. Kid needs a coat? Buy him one. Kid needs food? Give him some. Kids parents suck? Invite them to church. Get involved in their lives. Guide them to some help.

Kids are actually being abused? Prosecute the parents, I have no problem with that. If a jury decides that it is legitimate abuse, ok.

Kidnapping the children before any real justice can take place is unacceptable. Forcing medical procedures on them is unacceptable.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I do not agree that you can blame every sickness on the lack of a coat.

That's why we have due process. You know, notice, hearing, right to cross exam, instead of running around hitting people with clubs.

 

[steveh_131]

You are the only INGOtarian now? So noted.

I'm the one you're arguing with. You clearly intended that barb for me. Back it up.

If you meant it for someone else, then point out their references to Jenny McCarthy.

You can't, of course. I already know that. Just illustrating how full of it you are.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Now you are telling me I need to clean my place up, sheeeeeshh, when will it stop?

The ungodly tyranny of reality is crushing for INGO.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Just illustrating how full of it you are.

Full of knowledge which I have offered to extend to you. But seemingly all you want to do is demonstrate your ignorance of science.

 

[steveh_131]

Full of knowledge which I have offered to extend to you. But seemingly all you want to do is demonstrate your ignorance of science.

Please, educate me further. I have an entire garden to fertilize next spring.

 

[T.Lex]

A system this flexible will also necessarily be flexible enough to take children away from good parents as well.

Not really. The system has rules, checks and balances. Is it foolproof? No. Fools are too ingenious.

As I understand it, the logical conclusion of your argument is to deny ALL state intervention. Which would essentially abandon hundred or thousands of kids to a brutality that is inhumane. And I'm not really being alarmist or exaggerating.

If I misunderstand your argument, I welcome your clarification.

Just as I am unwilling to remove our 2A liberties for the sake of 'the children', I am also unwilling to remove our medical liberties. I would even argue that they are more important.

I do not disagree. Frankly, I think they are related. But, my sense is that you are approaching the problem from the perspective of a good parent worried about the state overreaching and meddling in a reasonable decision. That is not what the system (as I am familiar with it) is designed to do, and not how it operates in reality.

There are other avenues for helping children in need. Kid needs a coat? Buy him one. Kid needs food? Give him some. Kids parents suck? Invite them to church. Get involved in their lives. Guide them to some help.

My friend, with all respect, that rarely works. It is a miracle when it does, for sure. In my personal case, frankly, those acts of love and kindness simply delayed the inevitable.

Kids are actually being abused? Prosecute the parents, I have no problem with that. If a jury decides that it is legitimate abuse, ok.

Ok, so you arrest both parents. Where do you put the kids? How many times do you put the kids back with the parents after they are released?

1Kidnapping the children before any real justice can take place is unacceptable. Forcing medical procedures on them is unacceptable.

All the time? Without any gray area?

So a child with bacterial meningitis is left to die because the parent thinks it will pass?

Again, I truly mean no disrespect, but I sense that you have not experienced how bad some parents can be. Apologies if I am incorrect in that.

 

[Bunnykid68]

The ungodly tyranny of reality is crushing for INGO.

I just tossed my broom and dust pan in the garbage in protest

 

[steveh_131]

Not really. The system has rules, checks and balances. Is it foolproof? No. Fools are too ingenious.

As I understand it, the logical conclusion of your argument is to deny ALL state intervention. Which would essentially abandon hundred or thousands of kids to a brutality that is inhumane. And I'm not really being alarmist or exaggerating.

If I misunderstand your argument, I welcome your clarification.

I would not deny all state intervention.

They should be subject to the same laws that every other criminal is subject to. And the same process.

Most importantly, they should be considered innocent until proven guilty. They are currently not.

I do not disagree. Frankly, I think they are related. But, my sense is that you are approaching the problem from the perspective of a good parent worried about the state overreaching and meddling in a reasonable decision. That is not what the system (as I am familiar with it) is designed to do, and not how it operates in reality.

Just as you approach the gun violence problem from the perspective of a good gun owner worried about the state overreaching and meddling.

Your perspective may be biased, but you are still correct.

My friend, with all respect, that rarely works. It is a miracle when it does, for sure. In my personal case, frankly, those acts of love and kindness simply delayed the inevitable.

State intervention rarely works as well. Unfortunately, it seems that we as a society have relegated this task almost solely to the government. Maybe if that were to change and we took responsibility for each other as a community instead of relying on DCS, that might change.

Just a thought, I don't really know. I do understand your point.

Ok, so you arrest both parents. Where do you put the kids? How many times do you put the kids back with the parents after they are released?

What I am suggesting wouldn't necessarily change this process.

All the time? Without any gray area?

So a child with bacterial meningitis is left to die because the parent thinks it will pass?

The real gray area here is the medicine. No medical decision is black and white like this. You can never say "This child will die if we don't intervene", and you can't say "This child will be safe if we give him this medicine".

Every medicine has side effects and dangers. The only people qualified to weigh these dangers are the people who have a vested interest in the well-being of the child. And that is never the state. It might not always be the parents, either, but I don't believe that is up to us to decide.

Again, I truly mean no disrespect, but I sense that you have not experienced how bad some parents can be. Apologies if I am incorrect in that.

Not from the perspective of a lawyer, no. I did have substantial experience in various homeless shelters and in some of the worst neighborhoods in south, south Chicago. I do know how bad parents can be.

You could make me equally emotional by telling me sad stories of murders and accidents with firearms. I'll still side with the 2nd amendment and with liberty for the same two reasons:

1. The state is wildly ineffective at regulating behaviors, and
2. I am willing to accept the risks presented by liberty.

I'm sure you are familiar with this formulation:

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer",

Does that not apply to a family trying to raise their child in peace, such as the one in this article?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Please, educate me further. I have an entire garden to fertilize next spring.

Yes, reality is sooo boring to the INGOtarian set.

 

[steveh_131]

Yes, reality is sooo boring to the INGOtarian set.

Tell me more about usufruct property. It gets me so hot when you misquote Jefferson

 

[hornadylnl]

A system this flexible will also necessarily be flexible enough to take children away from good parents as well.

Just as I am unwilling to remove our 2A liberties for the sake of 'the children', I am also unwilling to remove our medical liberties. I would even argue that they are more important.

There are other avenues for helping children in need. Kid needs a coat? Buy him one. Kid needs food? Give him some. Kids parents suck? Invite them to church. Get involved in their lives. Guide them to some help.

Kids are actually being abused? Prosecute the parents, I have no problem with that. If a jury decides that it is legitimate abuse, ok.

Kidnapping the children before any real justice can take place is unacceptable. Forcing medical procedures on them is unacceptable.

It's in this ambiguity where all the government power lies.

 

[hoosierdoc]

I have no idea what a CHINs is and would like to know now.

 

[hornadylnl]

I have no idea what a CHINs is and would like to know now.

I believe it's child in need of services.

 

[7urtle]

im not sure if there should be purple in some of these

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Tell me more about usufruct property.

I have, you just weren't paying attention. You were likely distracted by a Ron Paul newsletter.

It gets me so hot

Cool down, take off your jacket and sit down and study.