Woman With Pot of Boiling Water Shot Dead by Police

[Route 45]

Newest scoop...

Police called fatal Sonya Massey shooting ‘self-inflicted’ despite deputy’s shots: audio

Illinois police initially claimed that the fatal gunshot to the head that killed a black woman with mental health issues who had called 911 for help was “self-inflicted,” audio from the…

nypost.com

 

[Leadeye]

Ben Crump is desperately trying to make "boiling water woman" the next George Floyd.

I don't know if he does anything else, but these types of cases seem to be where he goes.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I don't know if he does anything else, but these types of cases seem to be where he goes.

Guarantee if the woman was white, he wouldn't be sniffing around. He's a one-note Johnny.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

When? When does that happen? Do you have actual sources or confirmed instances of footage being tampered with by police?

I've never seen a BWC that the officer can delete footage from. But whatever.

There are definitely times BWC don't trigger. Holster sensors seem to be very hit or miss. And I'm sure there are times officers have turned them off when they weren't supposed to. Overall, though, the footage has exonerated a ton more officers than it's implicated.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The guys working at the manufacturing plant aren't bestowed with supra authority and shielded by qualified immunity.

Not sure what supra authority is, but the only difference in my arrest authority and yours is unwitnessed misdemeanors and misdemeanor exceptions.

Qualified immunity protects people who operate within the confines of ever changing and not clearly established case law. It's the same protection you have from criminal law where you can't be charged for violations of a law before it's passed. Manufacturing plants tend to not have to make decisions that will be reviewed by multiple courts, who may disagree with each other, and then be held liable for whichever way the highest judge decides, so of course not.

Everybody knows Miranda rights. Everyone should know that SCOTUS invented the requirement for a police officer to be your civics teacher in certain, but not all, situations whole cloth with zero foundation in prior criminal law or civil law. Qualified Immunity means that not reading someone Miranda *prior* to the ruling is not grounds for civil liability. Trying to guess what the courts will decide next is like trying to figure out what cancel culture will fine offensive 10 years from now.

QI is often attacked and mischaracterized as, without it, the Ferguson effect would be greatly amplified and domestic law enforcement would be even further hamstrung and reactionary in nature. Plus a lot of people make a lot of money suing the gov't...

 

[manifest destiny]

Overall, though, the footage has exonerated a ton more officers than it's implicated

I was gonna mention this. There was initially a huge pushback against bwc. But in practice, many a cop has been cleared of accusations. LE is quick to release footage favorable and slow, to down right obstinate, to release damaging footage. And that only feeds the perception of LE playing a bit loose and free, situationally. On balance, it seems like bwc are turning out better than expected, though.

 

[Denny347]

The guys working at the manufacturing plant aren't bestowed with supra authority and shielded by qualified immunity.

Oh this again? Qualified Immunity only "Shields" those officers who followed clearly established law and policy. Otherwise, you are on your own. That is why it's called "Qualified" and not "Absolute".

 

[Denny347]

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation...-cameras-new-developments-week-heres-happened

Gee this came up immediately on a simple google search…… yep no corruption to be seen in law enforcement, cops would never tamper with their body cameras now move along sheeple……

In case your fingers are broken and can’t google search yourself here’s another article
https://prismreports.org/2024/07/16/complex-troubling-history-police-body-cameras/

What a silly statement. No one is saying there is NO corruption, it's just not a rampant as the masses believe. Again, watching too much TV will do that to you. As long as there are humans in LE, there will ALWAYS be human shortcomings. But there is no mass corruption looking to put you in jail for no reason or to hide a litany of criminal behaviours. That is fantasy.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I was gonna mention this. There was initially a huge pushback against bwc. But in practice, many a cop has been cleared of accusations. LE is quick to release footage favorable and slow, to down right obstinate, to release damaging footage. And that only feeds the perception of LE playing a bit loose and free, situationally. On balance, it seems like bwc are turning out better than expected, though.

Don't we have BWC footage that started this thread that's pretty damaging? I think the times are such that most departments would rather get ahead of it.

There are, however, legitimate reasons to not release crime scene footage regardless of if it's LE or not. It's a decision we make with surveillance footage of any kind constantly. Examples are tainting witnesses (information that is private makes it easy to determine if a witness is really a witness, if photo arrays are to be shown you want people identifying from their own memory, not from seeing footage after the fact, etc) and jury tainting. The recent road rage shooting, for example, most everyone has made up their mind about the shooting and while it is, in fact, justified if it were one that were going to go to trial the local jury pool would tainted. There's a balancing act involved that isn't always about a coverup, PR management, etc. An issue that's often of more concern to smaller departments with fewer resources is that video also needs redacted, etc since there's rules about what can and can't be publicly released (say, sex crime victim or child or SSN identifying information, etc)

 

[manifest destiny]

Oh this again? Qualified Immunity only "Shields" those officers who followed clearly established law and policy. Otherwise, you are on your own. That is why it's called "Qualified" and not "Absolute".

No, you misunderstand. I accept QI. It would be nearly impossible to do the job without it. My point is, when a Leo does F up, the punishment should be greater than a non Leo. You and other badges claim the job is the same as any job and punishment is doled out like punishment for those in other job types. I disagree. If LE is afforded a very long leash, with great discretion and authority way above and beyond a normal citizen, then so too should their punishment be above and beyond a normal citizen.

Anyway, this has been, I think, a rather respectful conversation but it's starting to get dicey. Cops are always right and non cops just don't understand. Ok. Got it. So this will be my last post in this thread.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

No, you misunderstand. I accept QI. It would be nearly impossible to do the job without it. My point is, when a Leo does F up, the punishment should be greater than a non Leo. You and other badges claim the job is the same as any job and punishment is doled out like punishment for those in other job types. I disagree.

I can, with 100% certainty from an inside view, tell you that cops are absolutely charged in instances the general citizenry has not historically been charged in the same situation. I can with 100% certainty tell you that the higher level of training and experience is used against police in charging decisions. I can with 100% certainty tell you that you will never face an official misconduct charge on top of whatever underlying offense you committed. You are very unlikely to lose your job and pension for a misdemeanor conviction, but you may depending on your field. Even on the civil side, cops are sued *way* more often than general citizenry defenders. This is likely a function of "that's where the money is" but the process is a great source of stress and a punishment all it's own.

I mean, it's taken the state to create a new law that says I can use neck restraints again. Nothing prohibits the general citizenry from using any force that's reasonable, yet because of optics...

Frankly, I think you've oversimplified our statements. It's a job like any other job in many respects. People are just people in many respects, but of course it has it's unique characteristics. Same could be said of many jobs. ER docs make the wrong call and people die, but we typically don't get much in the way of media hype, lengthy threads, etc on it. Pilots make the wrong call and people die, but samey-same. There are unique characteristics at play in those professions that cause the optics to be different, but that doesn't mean many things aren't universal as well.

 

[KG1]

Seems like this conversation has been hashed out here several times before with many of the same arguments on both sides.

 

[nonobaddog]

What Bodycams Tell Us About the Challenges of Policing the Police

The cameras and other police accountability steps are popular with the public — but not always particularly effective.

www.themarshallproject.org

 

[racegunz]

What a silly statement. No one is saying there is NO corruption, it's just not a rampant as the masses believe. Again, watching too much TV will do that to you. As long as there are humans in LE, there will ALWAYS be human shortcomings. But there is no mass corruption looking to put you in jail for no reason or to hide a litany of criminal behaviours. That is fantasy.

What is a fantasy is the comments that I was replying to. Basically they were inferring that no one would cover for illegal behavior, which is counter to my experience and basic evidence.
Read the article in the link posted above, then tell me I’m “silly”.

 

[foszoe]

Seems like this conversation has been hashed out here several times before with many of the same arguments on both sides.

You sound hopeful someone will one day change their mind?

Let me mansplain' to you how the internet works.

 

[KG1]

You sound hopeful someone will one day change their mind?

Let me mansplain' to you how the internet works.

Not hopeful at all. This is INGO. Not very many minds have been changed on a number of subjects.

 

[BigRed]

If anyone has questions about this shooting, I'd say watch the footage directly from the Illinois State Police on a bigger screen and slow it down if you have to. I have been watching this full screen on my 28" monitor. The sequence of what happens when is pretty important here. She did NOTHING that she was not told to do right up until the time the shooter pointed his gun at her face. No movement of the pot from where it had been, nothing. Then, when the gun was pointed at her face, she did not pick up the pot initially, but held her hands up holding potholders, then crouched on the ground. As the shooter approached her over the counter, she, stupidly, reached up for the pot and threw it...but not very far as far as I can see. I think the pot landed before any shots were fired, but it was split-second, so that's not my issue.

I don't know what the grand jury believed, but whether a pot with boiling water is a weapon or not (it certainly could be), she did not use it as a weapon at any point until SHE was being threatened with death or bodily injury.

Now, I don't know the law in Illinois, but Indiana has this law:

"(i) A person is justified in using reasonable force against a public servant if the person reasonably believes the force is necessary to:
(1) protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force;
(2) prevent or terminate the public servant's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle; or
(3) prevent or terminate the public servant's unlawful trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person's possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person's immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect."

Ind. Code § 35-41-3-2.

This law was upheld in a resisting case by both the Indiana Court of Appeals and Indiana Supreme Court. I think, under Indiana law, at least, a plausible case can be made that she was allowed to use the pot as a weapon under the law. Also, it's still unclear to me what the context of them being in the house was. If that was the case, we can see what the result was always likely to be, so it would have been a stupid thing to do.

Using the body cam footage released by the Illinois State Police, in this case, the cam of the shooter here are some pics in order:

View attachment 368556

View attachment 368553

View attachment 368557

View attachment 368558

View attachment 368559

View attachment 368560

He's done.
No big loss to the taxpaying public.

 

[MrSmitty]

Maybe the boiling water was to baptize the policeman....

 

[KLB]

What is a fantasy is the comments that I was replying to. Basically they were inferring that no one would cover for illegal behavior, which is counter to my experience and basic evidence.
Read the article in the link posted above, then tell me I’m “silly”.

Would you please show the post that said that? I didn't see anyone say that no one would cover for illegal behavior.

 

[racegunz]

Would you please show the post that said that? I didn't see anyone say that no one would cover for illegal behavior.

#168,#169, and like I said “inferred” if you don’t understand the concept of inferences you may have difficulty understanding my response. Seeing as how you have already taken liberty with my responses meanings I assume you’re just trying to invoke some argument. There’s no one more blind than those who refuse to see.
Just hope this mental clown cop does life behind bars. Hopefully many more to follow.