Why didn't the 'Element of Surprise' help Zimmerman?

[HICKMAN]

Hers has been flawless. I can't give her a better gun to carry than one she trusts and is comfortable with.

That being said you are very close to being #1 on my **** list. Do not tell me how to treat my wife or what is or isn't best for her or myself. You have NO idea how much I love her or what I would do for her.

Simple advise from a fellow INGOer, no need for the ego. No one is questioning your love for your bride.
I just celebrated 18 years with mine, so yeah, I "have an idea".


Kel-tec's are notorious for breaking/failing. Sure, they are good to have in your tackle box or glove box, but they should not be relied upon as a primary carry gun. A quick google of "keltec problems" will get you 424,000 results.

If offering some advise puts me on your list... I'll live with that if some day down the road you might consider there are better options out there for her.

Don't take it personal, it's just the internet.

 

[HICKMAN]

If you don't feel threatened then your situational awareness is seriously lacking. I've been in situations like that and I was DEFINITELY on the defensive.

"Feeling threatened" is does not justify assualt.

Getting one's head bashed in while being assaulted does justify a deadly force.

It's as simple as that.

Nothing up until the actual assualt was illegal. Doesn't matter who was following who, who told who to do what, the minute the assualt occured is when a crime was committed.

In this case, we don't know who started what. So the survivor wins to tell his story. As I've said MANY times before, had TM killed GZ with his own gun, he could have claimed self-defense.

 

[hooky]

I stopped wading through this swamp when the guy who doesn't know either of the people involved but was deciding who started it, how it happened and why, posted this.

... never make assumptions about people you don't know.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

If you love her, buy her a better handgun

Mine didn't survive the 1000 round break-in, can't carry a gun I don't trust.

Simple advise from a fellow INGOer, no need for the ego. No one is questioning your love for your bride.
I just celebrated 18 years with mine, so yeah, I "have an idea".


Kel-tec's are notorious for breaking/failing. Sure, they are good to have in your tackle box or glove box, but they should not be relied upon as a primary carry gun. A quick google of "keltec problems" will get you 424,000 results.

If offering some advise puts me on your list... I'll live with that if some day down the road you might consider there are better options out there for her.

Don't take it personal, it's just the internet.

You are saying that after re-reading the bold portion from the first post that you are not questioning my love for my wife for not providing her a better carry gun?

Did I mention that I gave her a Colt .32 as her first gun but it was too big and uncomfortable for her? Or that she typically has my Taurus PT92 while at home? She picked out the Kel Tec P32 herself, it is easily the best gun for her to shoot and she likes it. It has never had a single malfunction.

BTW Google 'Glock problems' reveals about 6,070,000 results so I guess Kel Tec is better than Glock at least.

 

[Josh Ward]

I stopped wading through this swamp when the guy who doesn't know either of the people involved but was deciding who started it, how it happened and why, posted this.

 

[iChokePeople]

Warped sense of humor censored.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Warped sense of humor censored.

Slightly...

 

[mtgasten]

That video is actully is the exact video that was running through my head when I made the post. Along with the video that was posted a while back where a crazy guy retrieved his rifle from the truck and started shoting at an officer who was shooting back wildly. The officer died...

i believe the video you are referring to is that of Deputy Sheriff Kyle Dinkheller in Georgia, its a very intense video to watch

 

[Mackey]

I brought it up in the OC/CC argument thread but it was overlooked in the midst of more commonplace arguments so I figured it deserved its own thread.

My point is exactly what Mr. Habib alluded to: namely that if GZ was OCing this may never have happened.

My other point is that the so called 'element of surprise' is NOT a tactical advantage and is in fact a liability for injury. The injuries GZ suffered before deploying his weapon indicate either...

A. He did not perceive the threat in time and was overtaken by TM.

B. He was not willing to draw his weapon/communicate his intent to defend himself or it was ignored and he was unwilling to pull the trigger.

C. More likely he was simply unable to draw his weapon from concealment quick enough and therefore was attacked before he could defend himself and he is lucky he was still conscious to pull the trigger.

In a previous post you mentioned "extensive injuries." Are you kidding me?Do you think he'd have even one bit of a chance in defending himself in court if he outright shot TM before he was attacked to prevent these "extensive injuries." And how can you be sure that TM would have respected the gun? As he wooped up Zimmerman pretty good, he could just as well disarmed him and pistol whipped him.

I don't think this adds one bit to the intelligent conversation regarding this case. This is just an example of a OC enthusiast trying to bolster his case.

 

[Josh Ward]

Quite frankly I'm sick and f'ing tired of the "OC/CC debate" and have been for a LONG time.

Its stupid, plain and simple. We live in a fairly free state. If you wanna OC, then OC. If you wanna CC, then CC. Its just plain dumb to argue about which is better and why or why not you should or shouldn't do one or the other.

Just STFU, go about your daily business, and carry how you see fit.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Quite frankly I'm sick and f'ing tired of the "OC/CC debate" and have been for a LONG time.

Its stupid, plain and simple. We live in a fairly free state. If you wanna OC, then OC. If you wanna CC, then CC. Its just plain dumb to argue about which is better and why or why not you should or shouldn't do one or the other.

Just STFU, go about your daily business, and carry how you see fit.

Ok, just a thought, ignore the debate then.

 

[HICKMAN]

You are saying that after re-reading the bold portion from the first post that you are not questioning my love for my wife for not providing her a better carry gun?

Really Ben?? Is that what you took away from that first comment? That it was an attack on your love vs Kel-tec reliability.
I don't do purple text, figured it was kinda obvious.

Sorry buddy, don't know what else to tell ya, cept lighten up a little.

I'll quit crapping in your thread. Still look forward to shooting with ya someday.

 

[HICKMAN]

Quite frankly I'm sick and f'ing tired of the "OC/CC debate" and have been for a LONG time.

Its stupid, plain and simple. We live in a fairly free state. If you wanna OC, then OC. If you wanna CC, then CC. Its just plain dumb to argue about which is better and why or why not you should or shouldn't do one or the other.

Just STFU, go about your daily business, and carry how you see fit.

But Josh!! Glocks go KA-BOOM and 1911's suck!! What will we carry??

 

[Bunnykid68]

But Josh!! Glocks go KA-BOOM and 1911's suck!! What will we carry??

Red Ryder?

 

[Josh Ward]

But Josh!! Glocks go KA-BOOM and 1911's suck!! What will we carry??

Dunno bud, Kel-Teks maybe ??


I just don't understand the "you're not doing it MY way, so you're wrong" mentality. Its friggin moronic. Just exercise YOUR rights as YOU see fit, mind your own damn biddness, and STFU.

 

[Hayseed_40]

I just don't understand the "you're not doing it MY way, so you're wrong" mentality. Its friggin moronic. Just exercise YOUR rights as YOU see fit, mind your own damn biddness, and STFU.

 

[Donnelly]

Wow, so much hate in this thread. Almost makes me want to look for a new place to hang out. If I wanted to read this much ****, I would simply log on to ARF.com.

 

[HICKMAN]

20,000 opinions.

But we all stand for the same thing.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Really Ben?? Is that what you took away from that first comment? That it was an attack on your love vs Kel-tec reliability.
I don't do purple text, figured it was kinda obvious.

Sorry buddy, don't know what else to tell ya, cept lighten up a little.

I'll quit crapping in your thread. Still look forward to shooting with ya someday.

Just a simple misunderstanding then. I did take it quite literal.

I look forward to shooting with you too someday

 

[Kick]

I want to make the disclaimer that I did not read this entire thread. I have read entirely too many posts on this topic.

With that being said, I finally need to clarify my point of view on the topic. I typically CC for "the element of surprise". However, my personal definition is different than the definition I have read in some of the posts I have skimmed over in this thread. I would also like to add that I practice and train drawing from the CC position. It is not the "draw speed" that matters. It is getting on target and getting that first shot on target.

For ME. The "element of surprise" is not "quick drawing from a concealed location", if you are facing an attacker. I personally feel that there is a chance that if I were OCing, I would not have been attacked. However, I also feel that in that particular situation, there is also a chance that a potential attacker could observe the firearm and make an attempt to disarm you.

The "element of surprise" for me, applies to being in a service station, bank, or any other location with multiple persons. If multiple armed offenders were to enter such establishment with ill intent, I would prefer to have my weapon concealed. If the assailants observed a weapon, they would likely disarm or kill me first. If I had the weapon concealed, they would be unaware of the weapon, giving me "the element of surprise". It would afford me an opportunity to draw my weapon from concealment shall the assailants acts put myself or others in reasonable fear of receiving a battery resulting in death or great bodily harm.

BUT....

It comes down to personal preference. That is why there are so many different manufactures of firearms, vehicles, or anything else. Everyone likes something different. I do not judge those that OC or those that CC. To each his own. I am just happy to hear when people are exercising their rights in a way that makes them feel the most comfortable.