VW Scandal. How Does this Happen?

[BugI02]

You're not wrong. It's hard to want to maintain those ethics after getting ****** over by these emissions tests, but I still ultimately agree with you.

I'd like to believe that these guys were standing up to tyranny, but I'm guessing that they were under instructions from above and it had to do with profit margins, not freedom.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

 

[BugI02]

I think it has a lot less to do with right and wrong and more to do with who can fine who for more money. Follow the money.

I think Leadeye has the copyright on that statement

 

[BugI02]

Porsche CEO Matthias Muller to become new Volkswagen CEO

Is that a punishment or a reward? Was he given a yellow scarf?

 

[BugI02]

My comment on the article was:

The map is not the territory

 

[ghuns]

One of the interesting things to be seen is whether owners will even be allowed​ to refuse the "fix".

I don't see how you can be forced to accept the "fix". But if states that require a smog test alter their testing method to outsmart V-dubs software, you'll be screwed.

 

[HoughMade]

I don't see how you can be forced to accept the "fix". But if states that require a smog test alter their testing method to outsmart V-dubs software, you'll be screwed.

Easy. The "fix" will only be available through VW dealers. VW knows all of the cars it has sold and which ones have and have not gotten the fix. If you think they won't make this data available to the feds to lessen their punishment....

The only tricky part is getting the states to play along with the feds so when anyone who has not gotten the "fix" goes to renew their plates, the feds are alerted, possibly renewal is refused until the car is fixed. Many state AGs have jumped on the bandwagon to bring their own lawsuits against VW, so I don't see this as too difficult to pull off.

If it's a crime to tamper with emissions devices, which is is in most circumstances, it's not much of a stretch to make it illegal to continue to operate a known non-compliant vehicle.

...notice how I never mentioned emissions testing? it's not necessary to find the ones who didn't get the "fix".

 

[ghuns]

If it's a crime to tamper with emissions devices, which is is in most circumstances, it's not much of a stretch to make it illegal to continue to operate a known non-compliant vehicle.

So the owners of a 2015 V-bug will have to park it or fix it, even though it pollutes far less than some dude driving his old 12 valve Cummins powered Dodge with "Rollin Coal" stencilled across the back window?

 

[HoughMade]

So the owners of a 2015 V-bug will have to park it or fix it, even though it pollutes far less than some dude driving his old 12 valve Cummins powered Dodge with "Rollin Coal" stencilled across the back window?

Who knows? But I don't see that as at all far fetched.

 

[spencer rifle]

When we added on to our house, we had to retrofit the old part of the house with hardwired smoke detectors. I can see .gov using this as a opportunity to go after ALL VW diesel owners, not just the non-compliant ones. Even pre-2009. Never waste a good crisis.

 

[BugI02]

For the cars that used software only to defeat the controls, methinks I see a black market business opportunity in making the 'original' programming available after the car has been 'fixed'

 

[seedubs1]

No. It actually produced less emissions when the car detected that it was in a test (lack of actual car and steering wheel movement). They can do that really easily by deactivating EGR and SCR. It's not an ECM trick, it's actual after treatment tuning that is changed.

The software was designed to show reduced emissions triggered by lack of steering wheel movement during the emissions test. In actual driving conditions (wheel turning) the software switched to normal mode and emissions sky rocketed.

 

[seedubs1]

1) I live in IN, where nobody gives a rats ass about emissions or emissions testing. (Thank God, because my truck sure as heck wouldn't pass with all of the blow by I've likely got).
2) You really think they're capable of effectively utilizing that much data and forcing regulation on that many people/vehicles? I think not.

I could see the people in states that require emissions testing being effectively forced to take the fix due to not passing emissions once it's figured out how to tell if the cars have the fix or not. Basically, their car won't pass emissions, so they won't be able to drive it anymore.

Easy. The "fix" will only be available through VW dealers. VW knows all of the cars it has sold and which ones have and have not gotten the fix. If you think they won't make this data available to the feds to lessen their punishment....

The only tricky part is getting the states to play along with the feds so when anyone who has not gotten the "fix" goes to renew their plates, the feds are alerted, possibly renewal is refused until the car is fixed. Many state AGs have jumped on the bandwagon to bring their own lawsuits against VW, so I don't see this as too difficult to pull off.

If it's a crime to tamper with emissions devices, which is is in most circumstances, it's not much of a stretch to make it illegal to continue to operate a known non-compliant vehicle.

...notice how I never mentioned emissions testing? it's not necessary to find the ones who didn't get the "fix".

 

[seedubs1]

This. Can't wait to buy a few used TDI's on the cheap once the hippies start boycotting them.

My comment - when I saw this on FB... " Not only am I the owner of a TDI, I also am a Glock owner. I suggest you don't put you trash on my car again.."

 

[HoughMade]

1) I live in IN, where nobody gives a rats ass about emissions or emissions testing. (Thank God, because my truck sure as heck wouldn't pass with all of the blow by I've likely got).
2) You really think they're capable of effectively utilizing that much data and forcing regulation on that many people/vehicles? I think not.

I could see the people in states that require emissions testing being effectively forced to take the fix due to not passing emissions once it's figured out how to tell if the cars have the fix or not. Basically, their car won't pass emissions, so they won't be able to drive it anymore.

I live in IN where there is emissions testing.

I guess we can wait and see, but it's not that much data. Every VW dealership in the country can instantly access whether any VW anywhere has had a recall fix. Not hard at all. Up here, it's really easy to deny plates for a vehicle that has not passed a test, but this would not even require a test, just a note tagged to the VIN that it has not completed the recall.

 

[printcraft]

VW looking at class action lawsuits from people who, were knowingly lied to, purchased a vehicle that can't pass an emission test?

 

[Timjoebillybob]

No. It actually produced less emissions when the car detected that it was in a test (lack of actual car and steering wheel movement). They can do that really easily by deactivating EGR and SCR. It's not an ECM trick, it's actual after treatment tuning that is changed.

Did it actually produce "less emissions" or did it produce more? See below for a more detailed question.

1) I live in IN, where nobody gives a rats ass about emissions or emissions testing. (Thank God, because my truck sure as heck wouldn't pass with all of the blow by I've likely got).
2) You really think they're capable of effectively utilizing that much data and forcing regulation on that many people/vehicles? I think not.

I could see the people in states that require emissions testing being effectively forced to take the fix due to not passing emissions once it's figured out how to tell if the cars have the fix or not. Basically, their car won't pass emissions, so they won't be able to drive it anymore.

There is 2 counties in IN that do require emission testing...

I live in IN where there is emissions testing.

I guess we can wait and see, but it's not that much data. Every VW dealership in the country can instantly access whether any VW anywhere has had a recall fix. Not hard at all. Up here, it's really easy to deny plates for a vehicle that has not passed a test, but this would not even require a test, just a note tagged to the VIN that it has not completed the recall.

Yep, I now currently live in a non-emission testing county but I did live in them for quite a few years. I failed emission testing twice because the tester couldn't drive a stick. They gave me a printout of things that needed to be repaired on the car that was upwards of $2k, for a car I paid less than half of that. And when I say couldn't drive a stick I mean they killed the motor during the shift change and the unburned hydrocarbons spiked. They showed me the graph of the results and the points where the car "failed" was where they killed it. I offered to run the car during the test but they wouldn't let me. Took it to another facility with a few "receipts" for work done and amazingly it passed with flying colors.

There is (or at least was but I believe it is still current) a difference of how the Europeans and the United States determine emissions, in Europe they go by emissions per KM, where in the US they go by emissions per gallon of fuel. The European in this rare instance is actually better. If you take two comparable vehicles one gets 20 mpg and produces 10 emissions per gallon(epg) the other produces 30 epg but gets 60 mpg which produces more emissions? Or 10 epg with 20 mpg compared to 15 epg and 35 mpg?

Is it better to go by how many emissions a vehicle will produce per gallon burned or by miles traveled?

 

[ghuns]

For the cars that used software only to defeat the controls, methinks I see a black market business opportunity in making the 'original' programming available after the car has been 'fixed'

There is already a thriving market in the VW/Audi world for aftermarket tuning packages. Some of the really good ones allow you to switch back to the stock tune for trips to the dealer, emissions test, etc.

 

[seedubs1]

Sucks to be you. If I were you, I'd start showing up at City or County (whichever is appropriate) Council meetings and speaking my mind. Try to get that crap overturned.

Honestly, though, I think they'll just force the cars fixed as they don't comply with emissions testing. I really can't see the DMV being able to handle this and referencing VIN data to validate if a car has been fixed or not. They're a cluster **** as is.

I live in IN where there is emissions testing.

I guess we can wait and see, but it's not that much data. Every VW dealership in the country can instantly access whether any VW anywhere has had a recall fix. Not hard at all. Up here, it's really easy to deny plates for a vehicle that has not passed a test, but this would not even require a test, just a note tagged to the VIN that it has not completed the recall.

 

[seedubs1]

Yes, it actually produced less emissions during test. What I've been hearing (I'm in the industry) is that it was a combination of steering input and yaw sensing that detected that the car was in emissions testing. During testing, the car would have EGR + SCR active and working. When the cars were in real driving conditions, the car would turn off the emissions devices and the car would get better gas mileage, but produce higher emissions. I've yet to hear all of the details (was it only turned off for highway conditions, what about in town driving conditions, what load conditions, etc...???), but that is the basics of what was happening. In my opinion, you can't do that by accident. It was intentionally tuned that way and was malicious. VW should pay out the ass for this.

As far as emissions being per mile or per gallon, you can't just go strictly per mile. There's different ways to go about it. You can go per mile if you have it as a function of engine power. Or you can go per amount of fuel burned. Different vehicles require different power ratings. A 3/4 ton pickup pulling a boat has to burn more diesel per mile, needs more power, and will puke out more emissions than a little car that only needs 70 hp and gets 40+ MPG. Which method is best.....I don't know if there's an easy answer to that.

Did it actually produce "less emissions" or did it produce more? See below for a more detailed question.

Is it better to go by how many emissions a vehicle will produce per gallon burned or by miles traveled?

 

[actaeon277]

Sucks to be you. If I were you, I'd start showing up at City or County (whichever is appropriate) Council meetings and speaking my mind. Try to get that crap overturned.

Honestly, though, I think they'll just force the cars fixed as they don't comply with emissions testing. I really can't see the DMV being able to handle this and referencing VIN data to validate if a car has been fixed or not. They're a cluster **** as is.

You mean the EPA?
Yes, I'm sure they'll listen to us and change policy.