VW Scandal. How Does this Happen?

[steveh_131]

Here's a case where consumers were given false information, ergo, VW cheated their customers and their maleficence can be considered a violation of the free market system.

You're right. I let my recent irritation with the system cloud my judgment on the subject - they were fraudulent and dishonest.

 

[JettaKnight]

I suspect there was a meeting with the Project Lead, Engineering Lead, and at least 1 lawyer.

Lawyer (paraphrasing): Neat idea, Scotty (because of course, that's the engineer's nickname). We can justify it by saying it simply detects when the car is idling, so we can use maximum environmental devices at that time. Performance isn't an issue during idling. It is actually a feature.

(The feature thing came from the lawyer's hypothetical time, early in his career, with Microsoft.)

When do engineers (other than maybe civil) meet with lawyers? In all my time as an automotive engineer I've never even heard of this happening. Usually there's a compliance officer that work at the program level and interface with project managers. So did the compliance manger know or did Hans just see that it was wunderbar in the testing?

Seems like a good writeup here on how they figured it out:
How Two Dogged Clear Air Sleuths Exposed Massive VW Deceit | EWG

Thank you, I'll be back in an hour.

 

[T.Lex]

When do engineers (other than maybe civil) meet with lawyers? In all my time as an automotive engineer I've never even heard of this happening. Usually there's a compliance officer that work at the program level and interface with project managers. So did the compliance manger know or did Hans just see that it was wunderbar in the testing?

I was being a bit facetious, although I have been in meetings with engineers for smaller endeavors. Your point is entirely valid - how high did the original decision go.

It may end up being an example of groupthink. Someone at an early stage thought "Wouldn't it be cool if...." then no one really questioned it.

 

[HoughMade]

I was being a bit facetious, although I have been in meetings with engineers for smaller endeavors. Your point is entirely valid - how high did the original decision go.

It may end up being an example of groupthink. Someone at an early stage thought "Wouldn't it be cool if...." then no one really questioned it.

I would guess that a manager who no longer engineers set design parameters for the working engineers for cost of design and manufacturing, output, efficiency and no use of urea and this was the only way they figured they could meet all the mandated parameters...then no one up the line questioned it.

 

[JettaKnight]

I was being a bit facetious, although I have been in meetings with engineers for smaller endeavors. Your point is entirely valid - how high did the original decision go.

It may end up being an example of groupthink. Someone at an early stage thought "Wouldn't it be cool if...." then no one really questioned it.

I would guess that a manager who no longer engineers set design parameters for the working engineers for cost of design and manufacturing, output, efficiency and no use of urea and this was the only way they figured they could meet all the mandated parameters...then no one up the line questioned it.

It's possible this was a "design for test". There's a given test that must be passed. OK, let's design the vehicle to pass that test and still meet all the other key performance parameters (namely horsepower). It worked. From a verification standpoint it's a success, but from a validation standpoint, it fails. I'm sure there was some groupthink and culture whereby good engineers thought this was a good solution. But I've got to imagine there's a mile long papertrail on this. The average German engineer doesn't take a dump without a multitude of plans, schedules, trade studies, requirements and change notices.

I'll be using this as an example with my interns for a long, long time.

And I really, really want to see the source code.

 

[JettaKnight]

Oh, do you think we'll see #ImWithVW ? What they did is a helluva lot more ingenious than repacking an alarm clock.

 

[JettaKnight]

Martin Winterkorn resigns as Volkswagen CEO

When the whole place is on fire the best thing to do is run...

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

What I hear - and always suspected - is diesel engines can be produced by anyone to get over 50mpg with plenty of performance and move a midsize to full size car, if it weren't for emissions regulations. Anyone else think emissions regulations need a closer look? Perhaps the EPA needs some checks and balances that have something to do with real world manufacturing and cost?

 

[T.Lex]

What I hear - and always suspected - is diesel engines can be produced by anyone to get over 50mpg with plenty of performance and move a midsize to full size car, if it weren't for emissions regulations. Anyone else think emissions regulations need a closer look? Perhaps the EPA needs some checks and balances that have something to do with real world manufacturing and cost?

Oof. I'm not against double checking the emission standards, but I also remember my dad's 1983ish VW Rabbit diesel. The engine sounded funny and you could smell it before you heard it.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

Oof. I'm not against double checking the emission standards, but I also remember my dad's 1983ish VW Rabbit diesel. The engine sounded funny and you could smell it before you heard it.

Same with my 2004 F250 Turbo - but it meets the emissions maximums...also only gets 17mpg too. SUX!

 

[ArcadiaGP]

 

[JettaKnight]

Oof. I'm not against double checking the emission standards, but I also remember my dad's 1983ish VW Rabbit diesel. The engine sounded funny and you could smell it before you heard it.

THIS.

Everything's a trade-off. This republic has determined that clean(er) air trumps fuel usage and mfg cost to a certain degree. China, not so much...

Emission controls are one of those things where I don't want it on my car, but I want it on every other car.

 

[spec4]

Interesting posts. Sad to see VW try to pull this off. They must have figured the rewards justified the risks.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Interesting posts. Sad to see VW try to pull this off. They must have figured the rewards justified the risks.

Volkswagen hires BP oil spill lawyers to defend emissions cases | Business | The Guardian

 

[cosermann]

Why? How?
Unreasonable regs?
Too many regs? "If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law." - Winston Churchill
Our president doesn't obey the law why should they?
Not justifying, just attempting to explain. Frankly, I'm surprised such things don't happen more frequently.
Lawlessness leads to tyranny.

 

[steveh_131]

Emission controls are one of those things where I don't want it on my car, but I want it on every other car.

Do you guys have emissions testing in Ft. Wayne?

If not, do you want it?

 

[HoughMade]

Oof. I'm not against double checking the emission standards, but I also remember my dad's 1983ish VW Rabbit diesel. The engine sounded funny and you could smell it before you heard it.

Back in '93 when I was selling cars, I took a one-owner 1981 Rabbit diesel on trade. It had something like 48hp new, but the odo showed 196,000+...and it had quit working 4 years before. Still started, ran and drove OK, but probably had a few less ponies than original. It sounded worse then every tractor I've ever operated. We sold it for something like $495.

 

[danielocean03]

Well, as the proud owner of a 2015 Passat 2.0 TDI, and previous owner of a 2013 Passat 2.0 TDI, I'm interested to see how this all plays out.

 

[1775usmarine]

Well, as the proud owner of a 2015 Passat 2.0 TDI, and previous owner of a 2013 Passat 2.0 TDI, I'm interested to see how this all plays out.

2015 Jetta 2.0 TDI here. My thinking is if pollution was such a concern there would of been 50 state emission testing for ALL motorized vehicles a long time ago. Even in the end diesels have come along way since the 80's with GM's failed attempt, as well as the noise and smell older diesels use to have. I will still drive my car knowing what I know about diesel tech from Vincennes University.

 

[JettaKnight]

Do you guys have emissions testing in Ft. Wayne?

If not, do you want it?

No and no.

Personally, I would like to see a method whereby the worst offenders - and you know them when you see them on the road - are addressed.

How? I don't know; I recall seeing some devices that could sit on the road side and analyze cars passing by.