+1
I could not imagine a life threatening situation where I would squeeze off 1 round and wait to see what happens. This was an unbelievable f-up by the copper.
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Video of cop shooting unarmed man released
- Thread starter RA8
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- police shooting
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+1
I could not imagine a life threatening situation where I would squeeze off 1 round and wait to see what happens. This was an unbelievable f-up by the copper.
The Bubba Effect
Grandmaster
Bad deal
When I watched the video I thought the dude on the bike was drawing too. Without knowing anything else about the shooter, victim, any previous history, etc, I think the officer simply made a terrible mistake. I think he was in a stressful, horrible situation where it would have been easy for any of us to make the wrong call.
That said, if I go out tomorrow night intentionally shoot some unarmed stranger in the back while he's sitting on his motorcycle and has not threatened me in any way, I guarantee that I am going to prison. Can you imagine any explanation that would keep me out of prison? If this video were presented as evidence, it would speed my journey.
Isn't this really the real issue in self defense? If you need to use deadly force, you may, but you'd better be damn sure it is necessary or you could end up gunning down some poor guy who only wanted directions. Living with that would be bad enough, but on top of the guilt of knowing that you needlessly killed some innocent fellow American, you are also going to go down for murder. A person can't be expected to let the other guy shoot first to make sure he's a serious threat, but they also cannot just start popping people because their spider senses are tingling. By arming ourselves we have decided to take on the responsibility to be right every time. Every single one of us should squarely know that we cannot put the bullets back in the gun and we had better be right every time we pull the trigger.
Absent any more information, I am leaning towards some kind of attempted murder charge. I don't know much about the law, but when I put myself in the officer's position that's the kind of thing I would be expected to happen to me.
I think the officer probably just screwed up, but he screwed up bad and a serious violent felony conviction is a just punishment for screwing up that bad. I don't have any hatred for the officer nor affinity for the victim. I don't know either of them. But at the end of the day, someone shot an unarmed man in the back and there is justice.
When I watched the video I thought the dude on the bike was drawing too. Without knowing anything else about the shooter, victim, any previous history, etc, I think the officer simply made a terrible mistake. I think he was in a stressful, horrible situation where it would have been easy for any of us to make the wrong call.
That said, if I go out tomorrow night intentionally shoot some unarmed stranger in the back while he's sitting on his motorcycle and has not threatened me in any way, I guarantee that I am going to prison. Can you imagine any explanation that would keep me out of prison? If this video were presented as evidence, it would speed my journey.
Isn't this really the real issue in self defense? If you need to use deadly force, you may, but you'd better be damn sure it is necessary or you could end up gunning down some poor guy who only wanted directions. Living with that would be bad enough, but on top of the guilt of knowing that you needlessly killed some innocent fellow American, you are also going to go down for murder. A person can't be expected to let the other guy shoot first to make sure he's a serious threat, but they also cannot just start popping people because their spider senses are tingling. By arming ourselves we have decided to take on the responsibility to be right every time. Every single one of us should squarely know that we cannot put the bullets back in the gun and we had better be right every time we pull the trigger.
Absent any more information, I am leaning towards some kind of attempted murder charge. I don't know much about the law, but when I put myself in the officer's position that's the kind of thing I would be expected to happen to me.
I think the officer probably just screwed up, but he screwed up bad and a serious violent felony conviction is a just punishment for screwing up that bad. I don't have any hatred for the officer nor affinity for the victim. I don't know either of them. But at the end of the day, someone shot an unarmed man in the back and there is justice.
Thinking this through the past couple days and watched the tape a couple times.
Spilling koolaid is a screw up. Even an accidental discharge is a screw up - a bad one.
Shooting someone in the back is not a screw up and this was not an accidental discharge. It was intentional. The shot was an intentional lethal shot in the center mass into the back. The only thing that prevented the officer from killing this guy was the fact that he paralyzed him. You can tell by the follow up actions of the officer that this was an intentional shot.
He needs to go to prison.
Spilling koolaid is a screw up. Even an accidental discharge is a screw up - a bad one.
Shooting someone in the back is not a screw up and this was not an accidental discharge. It was intentional. The shot was an intentional lethal shot in the center mass into the back. The only thing that prevented the officer from killing this guy was the fact that he paralyzed him. You can tell by the follow up actions of the officer that this was an intentional shot.
He needs to go to prison.
Unacceptable behavior, not enough punishment to set an example for shooting someone in the BACK.
This is really getting out of hand, what is the no.1 rule of firearm safety? never point it at?, always treat it like it is?
If you MUST then please use that tactic ON Politicians, Bankers & Corporations so when you put your life on the line it is for a worthy cause for your country and not over a pair of $20 jeans.
This is really getting out of hand, what is the no.1 rule of firearm safety? never point it at?, always treat it like it is?
If you MUST then please use that tactic ON Politicians, Bankers & Corporations so when you put your life on the line it is for a worthy cause for your country and not over a pair of $20 jeans.
kingnereli
Master
This is such a sad set of events and I'm glad the officer was found guilty. Hopefully his sentencing will be equally just. It is absolutely astonishing that anyone would try to justify his actions.
I think if the guy on the bike were trying to draw a pistol (especially in an offensive manner) he would have already had a firm grasp on the grip, and possably unholstered in the few seconds it took him to get shot. When the guy on the bike turned to the right his arm followed accordingly. It looks like his hand was cupped a little and it inadvertently hooked the bottom of his jacket. If he were trying to reach for a gun why would he turn at all? It looks like he turned like "huh???(exlimated by his dumbfounded look) ... BAM!" The cop shouln't have shot until he saw the biker raise his shirt and grab something at the very least. I personally feel the officer shouldn't have had his firearm drawn yet anyway. It's not like it was a hot persuite. the guy stopped. His buddy tried to stop then nearly got t-boned by the other squad car. Did the guys on the bikes act like resposible motorists? No. Was leathal force nessessary? Not in my opinion. Leathal force is a last resort and that cop still had options.
ImGumbyD@mIt
Plinker
This reminds me, does anybody remember the story of that cop that was involved in a high speed chase, (I think it was a vette) they finally stopped and the vid showed the passenger was prone when the officer commanded him to get up and then proceeded to put 4 rounds in his back before he could do anything? What ever happened to that cop?
Tough call
I see both sides on this one. I probably would have waited another second or two to see if that hand was actually drawing a weapon or not.
As it turns out in this situation, that would have been the right call. In another situation, I might have been dead. The job does come with some risks!
For those automatically condemning the officer's actions as if he somehow WANTED this guy dead is both sad and telling of some people's prejudices with regard to law enforcement.
All the police officer had to do was explain his perceptions of the situation at the time and explain why he did what he did. The jury had to decide if both his actions and perceptions were reasonable given the totality of circumstances. Apparently they felt his perceptions and actions were not reasonable.
There are no winners in this situation no matter how the case turned out.
Vanguard.45
I see both sides on this one. I probably would have waited another second or two to see if that hand was actually drawing a weapon or not.
As it turns out in this situation, that would have been the right call. In another situation, I might have been dead. The job does come with some risks!
For those automatically condemning the officer's actions as if he somehow WANTED this guy dead is both sad and telling of some people's prejudices with regard to law enforcement.
All the police officer had to do was explain his perceptions of the situation at the time and explain why he did what he did. The jury had to decide if both his actions and perceptions were reasonable given the totality of circumstances. Apparently they felt his perceptions and actions were not reasonable.
There are no winners in this situation no matter how the case turned out.
Vanguard.45
Ingo has a. Crystal ball ? ... all I got was this used magic 8 ball..let me shake it again....sorry dude it says your shot....no,no...says you will have a shot...wild turkey I believe..my bad!
PatriotPride
Shooter
Listen, I am NOT trying to speak for everyone here, as your post suggests. All I'm saying is that it is somewhat ridiculous for one to armchair QB and say "noone would fire one solitary round". The point I was trying to make is this: shoot until the threat ceases. If YOU feel that the threat has ceased after firing 13 rounds then good for you. If another feels that the threat has been neutralized after a solitary shot, fantastic. It would almost seem that you all would feel that the officer didn't really feel endangered because he didn't unload on the kid. If the officer fired five rounds into the kids back, would you then feel that the officer felt endangered?
Listen, I am NOT trying to speak for everyone here, as your post suggests. All I'm saying is that it is somewhat ridiculous for one to armchair QB and say "noone would fire one solitary round". The point I was trying to make is this: shoot until the threat ceases. If YOU feel that the threat has ceased after firing 13 rounds then good for you. If another feels that the threat has been neutralized after a solitary shot, fantastic. It would almost seem that you all would feel that the officer didn't really feel endangered because he didn't unload on the kid. If the officer fired five rounds into the kids back, would you then feel that the officer felt endangered?
I haven't seen this video with sound - what the officer said before shooting would have a lot to do with my verdict as a juror. With what I have seen, I can't say that the biker was the least bit threatning. I may not like what I see his hand doing, but furtive movement or not, I personally couldn't justify shooting from what I've seen here.
...and on a side note, aren't all jury members really "armchair quarterbacks"?
Now I'm not exactly sure what the speed limit was on that road, but if he didn't go over the speed limit, I don't even see justification in pulling them over. Your allowed to accelerate fast as long as you don't squeal your tires.... in Indiana anyway.
I also don't agree with getting out of the car, gun out ready to go.... If I got pulled over for speeding and the officer gets out with his gun drawn, I would argue that thats a little excessive.
Also, there is No possible way the guy on the bike even knew the officer had his gun drawn, He probably just assumed the officer would walk up next to him....like what should have happened. I understand being on your guard ready to go, but I think the officer was a bit excessive in this case.
I also don't agree with getting out of the car, gun out ready to go.... If I got pulled over for speeding and the officer gets out with his gun drawn, I would argue that thats a little excessive.
Also, there is No possible way the guy on the bike even knew the officer had his gun drawn, He probably just assumed the officer would walk up next to him....like what should have happened. I understand being on your guard ready to go, but I think the officer was a bit excessive in this case.
Who knows what was going through the officers mind. The thing is he is going to have to explain to the jury that another officer of resonable mind would feel that his life was in danger. Without being able to listen to the officer articulate why he did what he did, I dont thinks it right to pass judgement. There is a video of a police shooting on youtube of a police officer shooting a guy as he's putting his ak on the ground. What you cant see from the vantage point of the camera is as he was laying down the long gun he was grabbing a gun hiden in the small of his back. Video looks like the cop shot a surendering suspect. Food For Thought.
This. Furthermore, doesn't everyone's shoulder naturally get swept back when turning back and to their right?
(Possible) speeding is a reason to point a gun at someone? Could you imagine if people pointed guns at eachother for..................wait for it............................speeding?
Apparently he didn't sway the jury, hence his conviction.
evansvillethompsongunner
Shooter
- Oct 29, 2009
- 2,434
- 36
What is everyone so up-in-arms about?
You want a police state, you let things snowball until it becomes a police state, doing nothing to stop government expansion of power here in America, and then some incident happens, and suddenly people wring their hands and ask the sky in vain: 'Why?'
Why get super upset when things 'suddenly' go wrong?
What, you think that the government of this Republic abides the founding ideals anymore? Really? You think that innocent until proven guilty holds weight any longer?
I don't think so, gentlemen, and these after-the-fact protestations are a bit much, methinks. Events like this are a natural outcome of the decayed nature of this system under which we live and operate... namely, a lack of trust and a lack of communication. Government doesn't tell us what it's up to, and we're certainly not about to tell them. Unease. Distrust. Blame.
There's just no trust, folks - the government doesn't trust us, and given blatant abuses of power from the higher echelons of the National government being something that springs to mind, I'm not very inclined to trust them either... and without trust, you can hardly have a working relationship with anyone, much less the people charged with the task of keeping public order. We are, apparently, by and large, viewed with distrust. Granted, there are some seriously asinine citizens and cops among us who have helped perpetuate an atmosphere of distrust... but an inability to both abstract to larger systems of operation and to draw distinctions always lead to bad results. Not even a slight minority of officers willfully or knowingly try to stomp their boots in your face. By the same token, not even a slight minority of citizens want to maim or wound law enforcement officers. There are bad apples grown on both sides of the pasture, but this current system of governance does not facilitate peaceful cooperation in the least, and as such, I fully expect more of this type of violent, tragic occurrence to happen with increasing regularity unless we all try to keep in mind... the actions of one are not the actions of the many.
The motorcyclist was a bit slow on stopping and made one slight and life-changing arm motion and now his life is forever changed. Walking is out forever. His sex life is almost certainly over forever as he knew it. His life isn't over, not by any means. He can still see, he can still do a lot of things, but his life will now be radically different.
The officer was a bit too quick to assume that a half-articulated gesture was a threat on his life, and he changed his own life in the process. Assuming he gets the full eleven years, that's a long time - some will say too long, some will say not long enough - but over a decade of a lifespan that's about eighty or so years? Forfeiture of the freedom of one-eighth of your life for a decision that you made in one second? A lot seems weighted on that one decision, then. His life too, no matter what happened in that second, has also changed, forever.
So what's the point of armchair quarterbacking it now? It doesn't do a thing unless we take something away from it - everyone, law enforcement and citizenry alike.
The vast majority of police are good people.
The vast majority of citizens are good people.
Two people had grave miscommunication.
They are both now paying the price.
Thankfully for all of us, the rule-of-law, despite being somewhat decayed, still keeps us all in check.
Just my two cents on it.
You want a police state, you let things snowball until it becomes a police state, doing nothing to stop government expansion of power here in America, and then some incident happens, and suddenly people wring their hands and ask the sky in vain: 'Why?'
Why get super upset when things 'suddenly' go wrong?
What, you think that the government of this Republic abides the founding ideals anymore? Really? You think that innocent until proven guilty holds weight any longer?
I don't think so, gentlemen, and these after-the-fact protestations are a bit much, methinks. Events like this are a natural outcome of the decayed nature of this system under which we live and operate... namely, a lack of trust and a lack of communication. Government doesn't tell us what it's up to, and we're certainly not about to tell them. Unease. Distrust. Blame.
There's just no trust, folks - the government doesn't trust us, and given blatant abuses of power from the higher echelons of the National government being something that springs to mind, I'm not very inclined to trust them either... and without trust, you can hardly have a working relationship with anyone, much less the people charged with the task of keeping public order. We are, apparently, by and large, viewed with distrust. Granted, there are some seriously asinine citizens and cops among us who have helped perpetuate an atmosphere of distrust... but an inability to both abstract to larger systems of operation and to draw distinctions always lead to bad results. Not even a slight minority of officers willfully or knowingly try to stomp their boots in your face. By the same token, not even a slight minority of citizens want to maim or wound law enforcement officers. There are bad apples grown on both sides of the pasture, but this current system of governance does not facilitate peaceful cooperation in the least, and as such, I fully expect more of this type of violent, tragic occurrence to happen with increasing regularity unless we all try to keep in mind... the actions of one are not the actions of the many.
The motorcyclist was a bit slow on stopping and made one slight and life-changing arm motion and now his life is forever changed. Walking is out forever. His sex life is almost certainly over forever as he knew it. His life isn't over, not by any means. He can still see, he can still do a lot of things, but his life will now be radically different.
The officer was a bit too quick to assume that a half-articulated gesture was a threat on his life, and he changed his own life in the process. Assuming he gets the full eleven years, that's a long time - some will say too long, some will say not long enough - but over a decade of a lifespan that's about eighty or so years? Forfeiture of the freedom of one-eighth of your life for a decision that you made in one second? A lot seems weighted on that one decision, then. His life too, no matter what happened in that second, has also changed, forever.
So what's the point of armchair quarterbacking it now? It doesn't do a thing unless we take something away from it - everyone, law enforcement and citizenry alike.
The vast majority of police are good people.
The vast majority of citizens are good people.
Two people had grave miscommunication.
They are both now paying the price.
Thankfully for all of us, the rule-of-law, despite being somewhat decayed, still keeps us all in check.
Just my two cents on it.
...on a completely technical note...
Force-on-force training is really, really, really needed by ALL police officers (and by the rest of us.)
Reaction times, observation skills, etc, all get a work out with such training. It's just my opinion, but things like this would see a sharp decline if such practice was a regular part of all of our training.
Force-on-force training is really, really, really needed by ALL police officers (and by the rest of us.)
Reaction times, observation skills, etc, all get a work out with such training. It's just my opinion, but things like this would see a sharp decline if such practice was a regular part of all of our training.
groovatron
Master
Guilty verdict!!!!!
I hope the victim gets a nice cash settlement too....
I hope the victim gets a nice cash settlement too....
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