Vaccinations. Yes or no ?

[J_Wales]

The only reason measles etc is making a comeback is sore to know it all parents not vaccinating their kids.

I am curious.

What do you think and what are your opinons on malaria and dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane?

 

[rambone]

Flu vaccines should not be involuntary unless you are in a high risk of mortality group.

No, vaccines should be 100% voluntary in every case. Period.

People can say that it is a way for the government to control us, BS. Its a way for the government to keep its people healthy so they can work and keep others from missing work.

That's a Nanny State government.

Yes, there are risks. But there are more risks to hopping in my car and driving to the gas station. If you live your life in fear of "the potential risks" then what kind of life is that?

You fear the "potential risks" of diseases that have tiny fatality rates. Same thing eh?

Get your immunizations. Have a sore arm, and probably feel icky for 2 days. It'll be a lot better than projectile vomiting and crapping your pants on the way up to your house with the flu after you get off worl...and then being off work for a few days.

Or maybe experience a seizure, deafness, brain damage, every flu symptom (fever, nausea, aches), rashes, Guillian Barre Syndrome, paralysis, death.

Source: CDC

They get sicks from the stress of a larger workload. Then you go back still feeling crappy but "over it". Productivity drops, revenue drops.

Sounds like an issue that needs to stay between employer and employee. I would quit if forced to take injections.

You would really trade all the conveniences and liberties of this country as it is, fostered under the law as it stands, in exchange for a state of natural freedom where you would probably not live past forty?

Unequivocally yes. Give me Liberty or give me death. Live free or die. Don't tread on me. Forced vaccines are every bit as repulsive as gun confiscation.

Yes. But their are limitations to everyones individual rights.

If you willingly limit "rights" so easily, they are nothing but privileges. No thanks to that outlook.

I have a right to live free of the risk of infection. It can happen.

Absolute nonsense.

Her body doesn't fight infections well at all because of her disease.

That is unfortunate, but it cannot be used as the foundation for destroying other people's rights. The world is always going to be a risky place and unfortunately we don't all get to live long, disease-free lives.

Ram, from reading between the lines, your views of "rights" seem to teeter on the borders of anarchy. Absolute individul rights without recourse or thought for abusing or mistreating the rights of others.

I don't think you understand or appreciate what rights are, given your statements in this thread. Your views teeter on the borders of tyranny, where individual rights are sacrificed for the illusion of safety and security that will never be reached on this earth.

While I agree to a point that your kids should not be forced to have vaccinations, I do believe that they are a necessary evil to prevent an outbreak.

Necessary evil? Sorry, its not happening. Get all the booster shots you desire. You can't play God with society and try to make us all force-medicated.

To simply deny any responsibilty of your choice causing any potential harm borders on negligence and being uncaring.

Being sick isn't a violent act. Its nature taking its course. If you want to blame someone for being uncaring, shake your fist at the sky. Sickness and death are a part of life.

It really is quite frustrating trying to talk to you, it seems like you are kind of set and closed minded in your ways.

I am adamant about my rights and I support your right to vaccinate your family. My family is off limits though.

We all have the right to keep and bear arms. Yet a private property owner can tell us to GTFO because we carry. On a similar note, the schools have a right to deny any child who is unvaccinated entry due to the potential effects on the other children.

I am respectful of private property rights. Public schools are not private property. My advice, if being in public seems too scary, send your kids to private school where they are medicated regularly. I'm not down with that.

You may cry foul, but its the truth. Just because you exercise the right to not vaccinate, does not mean that the school can allow a potential medical threat to go unprevented.

All 50 states have vaccine exemptions to attend public school. Frankly, I am not a proponent of government-health care, so I believe that there need be no coercion to vaccinate whatsoever.

If that is not enough, there is always being homeschooled

That's a good option for parents who are afraid of disease.

If my child was to become ill with a virus they were vaccinated against and your kid got them sick, would you pay the medical bill? If they died would you pay the funeral and burial costs?

Thousands of people die from the common flu every year. Should we all go around suing each other for not washing our hands? Illness is a part of nature and you cannot punish it as if it were some kind of malicious, violent crime.

Pay by force? Absolutely not.
Voluntarily? I am a charitable person.

My turn. You advocate forced vaccinations. People die and suffer permanent disabilities from vaccines. These are admitted and listed by the CDC. What happens to the people who are maimed by dangerous vaccines? Will you pay for life support for paralyzed vaccine victims, since you literally would like to force-medicate them with risky drugs?

It would be because of your choice that they were in those circumstances, so I would hope you could accept the responsibility?

Maybe it is your fault for letting them outside of the plastic bubble you keep in your basement? Maybe you should accept responsibility.

As for the "Give up the rights for the greater good" option: It's the same as why I can't start blaring my music at 3am. Other people want to sleep. So i deal with a temporary inconvenience (head phones). Now this increases my chance of going deaf, but it's for the greater good.

The "give up your rights for the greater good" argument is used by ever tyrant in history. Maybe the temporary inconvenience should be you buying a pair of ear-plugs.

Let's play devil's advocate for a minute here. So you refuse to gett your child vaccinated rambone. Now your child catches measles, and spreads it to the girl with a weak immune system. She dies. How's that fair? Your neglect is causing the death of another. If you want to be part of society, there's certain rules to follow. One's not killing off others through neglect.

I don't know. How is it fair that we all have different genes, different susceptibilities, different immune systems, different luck, different nutrition, different hand-washing habits, etc.? How is it fair that viruses exist? How can we make life more fair? We may have to concede our dreams of disease-free utopia and realize that sickness is a part of life. You could die from the flu or a papercut. You can never beat Nature at its own game. Take the drugs you want to take, and live life to the fullest.

And I'm not talking flu vaccines here, those I agree are dumb. I'm talking the big boys, you know, what's required before you can go to school.

Nothing is required to go to school.

 

[rambone]

Someone's GOTTA ask this, and it's only half "tongue in cheek"....

What about a doctor named Ron Paul? Would he get the vaccination?

WWRPD?

Dr. Paul frequently speaks about the dangers of over-medicating. As a matter of government policy, he advocates a free and voluntary approach, as with everything else. He has the honesty to admit that people have suffered from overuse of drugs and vaccines. I am certain he would not vote for forced medication like we are reading in this thread.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f74xvtRijMc[/ame]

 

[GBuck]

So rambone, do you honestly believe that more people die from vaccine side effects than would die of the diseases they prevent if the vaccine was not available? When was the last case of death from polio in the US? diphtheria? Small pox?

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Rambone -
While I don't share all of your views on vaccines (I would likely be quicker to err on the side of taking them), I totally agree that it should not be by force. And I tend to agree with Ron Paul on this.

Part of my point with the Ron Paul comment was that everyone treats him like the Second Coming of the Messiah - when your position on vaccines would appear to be harsher than his... I would disagree with his Foreign policy, while agreeing with many of his other ideas. It IS possible to disagree with one point of RP's thinking without being a statist pig....

Should a public school be able to require a vaccination in order to participate? Yes, in my opinion. Of course, I would be all for privatizing and deregulating the heck out of schools.. so I'm not sure it would matter much.

As with anything - I would advocate listening carefully to what a doctor has to say. Then get a second opinion if it makes sense to, then make up your own mind. Doctors are better educated than I am on the topic - but in the end, it's my body.

I have a couple of nephews on the autistic spectrum, and the whole goat rodeo surrounding that left a bad taste in my mouth for the "anti-vaccination" crusaders. After that - the burden of proof is on them - as they lost a whole bunch of cred with me.

 

[GBuck]

I am curious.

What do you think and what are your opinons on malaria and dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane?

I don't have one, not did I mention them.

 

[Double T]

Wow. A response with an insult. I expected so little and gained even less.

You have no medical proof. Your family had an issue triggered by an injection, not caused by...if the injection were the cause, I'm sure it would have been published no?

Why should I accept responsibility for a moronic and selfish choice that you made? YOU AND YOU ALONE made the choice not to vaccinate.

In all honesty, 200% of your posts regarding the matter seem to be google fu opinion. So I think I'm very. Soon to use this ignore function.

So do you freely advocate anarchy? You don't want or seem to reason with a rational conclusion to some choices that may or may not negatively effect others. You do not seem to acknowledge the government unless it is letting you do what you want without regard.

I just seriously don't understand the combative approach to this. Its a boost in someones immune response. Its like calling to tell a neighbor someone is breaking into their basement this evening. It let's the body be ready.


Without an immunization, the body may or may not recognize the antigen as a "foreign body" to be kiilled. Its just plain silly to not, and just because you can choose not to do something, doesn't mean you shouldn't.

 

[rambone]

So rambone, do you honestly believe that more people die from vaccine side effects than would die of the diseases they prevent if the vaccine was not available? When was the last case of death from polio in the US? diphtheria? Small pox?

I have no idea. Since vaccine injuries are grossly under-reported, no one could possibly answer that.

But the answer is somewhat irrelevant to this discussion.

Our rights don't depend on empirical data to justify having them.

 

[J_Wales]

I don't have one, not did I mention them.

Thank you. I sincerely appreciate your honesty.

When you opined "the only reason measles etc is making a comeback is sore to know it all parents not vaccinating their kids" I thought you may also have an opinion on how the ban of DDT may be responsible for the resurgence of malaria.

If you look up the data, more people have died from malaria in the years following the ban of DDT than have from measles, polio, diptheria or smallpox.

I was wondering if you might advocate for a repeal of the ban on DDT.

 

[Double T]

Any time there is a reaction to any medication it has to be reported. I have no idea where you get your info. That's called an adverse reaction. If enough are reported, whatever it is is recalled an pulled.

 

[GBuck]

I have no idea. Since vaccine injuries are grossly under-reported, no one could possibly answer that.

But the answer is somewhat irrelevant to this discussion.

Our rights don't depend on empirical data to justify having them.

Wrong.

You are arguing that your rights mean you don't have to take them. So without any real numbers to back the statements you're making why be so blatantly against them? I'm not saying you have to take them, I'm saying what makes you go against statistics and spout all this information that you can't back? You want to risk your health in order to thumb your nose at perceived government over reach?

Work on your google skills and get back to me when you can back your statement that the vaccines do anywhere near a statistically measurable level of harm, especially versus the level of good they do. I wonder how many vaccines your holy Dr.Paul has prescribed on his career.

 

[GBuck]

Thank you. I sincerely appreciate your honesty.

When you opined "the only reason measles etc is making a comeback is sore to know it all parents not vaccinating their kids" I thought you may also have an opinion on how the ban of DDT may be responsible for the resurgence of malaria.

If you look up the data, more people have died from malaria in the years following the ban of DDT than have from measles, polio, diptheria or smallpox.

I was wondering if you might advocate for a repeal of the ban on DDT.

I apologize, but I do not see what you're trying to "get me" with here.. No one brought up malaria our ddt until you did.

 

[Double T]

Was whomever immunocompromised or ill when they were given the MMR? I wonder...

I know that tthey give really weak "live" viruses, but I can't recall which measles or rubella. One of then can cause encephalitis and resulting hearing loss.

Perhaps the persons immune response wasn't strong enough to fight the almost dead virus and it had the chance to replicate?

I'm sorry for what happened to your loved one, but it really can't be the vaccines fault or the lot number would have been recalled.

 

[J_Wales]

I apologize, but I do not see what you're trying to "get me" with here.. No one brought up malaria our ddt until you did.

I am not trying to "get you" with anyting, Sir.

I was simply mentioning yet another example of state mandated care that might be worth consideration.

I hope you will look into it.

I wish you well.

 

[rambone]

Wow. A response with an insult. I expected so little and gained even less.

I thought we were having a good back-and-forth debate, but if you felt insulted then I am sorry.

You have no medical proof. Your family had an issue triggered by an injection, not caused by...if the injection were the cause, I'm sure it would have been published no?

Rubbish. My sister was injected with a vaccine that contains 225 mcg Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulphate (neurotoxin) and 35 mcg Sodium Borate (roach poison). You don't need to have an underlying condition to see the effects of toxic chemicals on the body.

Why should I accept responsibility for a moronic and selfish choice that you made? YOU AND YOU ALONE made the choice not to vaccinate.

The point I was conveying is that humans cannot be held responsible for nature's ways of culling the population. Blame nature, not your neighbor. Accept it. You can't live forever. Imprisoning someone else won't improve your situation.

In all honesty, 200% of your posts regarding the matter seem to be google fu opinion. So I think I'm very. Soon to use this ignore function.

We haven't even tapped into my google-fu database of vaccine facts. All we are doing is discussing rights. I have a right to not be penetrated by force by the government. The end.

If you ignore me I am still going to rebuke your calls for forced medication of the population.

So do you freely advocate anarchy? You don't want or seem to reason with a rational conclusion to some choices that may or may not negatively effect others. You do not seem to acknowledge the government unless it is letting you do what you want without regard.

No, I do not advocate anarchy.

Just because I don't support this distopian idea of punishing people for being sick, and forcibly medicating the entire population like a bunch of lab rats, DOES NOT equate to anarchy.

I just seriously don't understand the combative approach to this. Its a boost in someones immune response.

It may be a boost to you. To me it is something that has affected my family and I am choosing to never be touched by another needle again. That's my right and its not negotiable. Its no different than me debunking someone's emotional arguments about why we should not be allowed to own guns.

 

[rambone]

Any time there is a reaction to any medication it has to be reported. I have no idea where you get your info. That's called an adverse reaction. If enough are reported, whatever it is is recalled an pulled.

When my sister went had a seizure in her doctor's exam room, he told her that it was probably caused by what she ate for breakfast. Certainly not the chemicals he injected into her organs. Then he tried to schedule her for 2 more booster shots as she stumbled out of his office.

No, he didn't report it. Reporting is not strongly encouraged and there are no repercussions for not reporting a reaction.

Most studies conclude that vaccine reactions are grossly under-reported; as many as 90-99% of reactions go unreported by doctors. How can patients make informed decisions about dangerous drugs with these abysmal reporting rates?

"In New Zealand, after the Menomune A, they were forced to set up hotlines, and then when they compared parent reporting, with reactions that the parents said that the doctors had been asked to report, that doctors only reported 0.9%."
Hilary Butler

"They claim the vaccines are safe, but physicians are indoctrinated to disbelieve claims of harm and are not trained to recognize nor required to report any adverse reactions. From 90% to 99% of the adverse reactions reported to doctors are never reported by those doctors to the government’s extremely lax Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, known as the VAERS."
Dr Rimland Ph.D.

"Former FDA Commissioner David Kessler estimated in a 1993 article in the Journal of the American Medical Association that fewer than 1 percent of all doctors report injuries and deaths following the administration of prescription drugs. This estimate may be even lower for vaccines. In one survey that our organization conducted in New York in 1994, only 1 doctor in 40 reported to VAERS."
Barbara Loe Fisher

"The fact is that study after study has shown that the vast majority - up to 99% - of reactions are never reported. Yet the government and the medical community rely on these figures which are 99% incorrect."
Meryl Dorey

"Before the latest round of injections, we had 205 parents contact us over a 5 year period....But only seven of those cases have been officially reported by doctors (3.4%)."
Jacki Fletcher of JABS
​

Wrong.

You are arguing that your rights mean you don't have to take them.

Yes, exactly. Sarah Brady's anti-gun statistics are irrelevant to the Right to Bear Arms. Rights don't depend on statistics.

So without any real numbers to back the statements you're making why be so blatantly against them? I'm not saying you have to take them, I'm saying what makes you go against statistics and spout all this information that you can't back? You want to risk your health in order to thumb your nose at perceived government over reach?

My sister's episode made me realize that vaccine reactions are possible. Talking to people since then has made me realize that I know several other victims of vaccine injury. I think the reactions are more common than the drug dealers want us to realize and I think that the long-term effects are completely unknown.

 

[Double T]

So you would rather die than have an antivenin? Rather sit through the surgery than have anesthesia? I can go on.

You do realize that EVERYTHING can kill you right? Too much O2 equals death. Drink too much water equals your electrolytes being watered down and out of synch. Cardiac dysfunction and potential death.

Something does not equate. Did your sister have renal or hepatic impairment? Was she premature?


Edit: I'm really sorry about your sister, but it sounds like you need to blame the pediatrician. The chemicals you mention are good to go except for when contraindicated. Renal or hepatic dysfunction, premature (when given at birth)

if your sister was able to stumble out, then it may well have been something she ate. Was this reaction at the first injection or on of the boosters? If it was the first, that's a very rare time for an allergic reaction to occur. I'm not saying its impossible, just unlikely. How old was your sister when this happened and is she allergic to other things with boric acid/"borax" in them?

 

[GBuck]

You do as good of a job at cutting and manipulating others' statements as the media does.

 

[rambone]

So you would rather die than have an antivenin? Rather sit through the surgery than have anesthesia? I can go on.

You do realize that EVERYTHING can kill you right? Too much O2 equals death. Drink too much water equals your electrolytes being watered down and out of synch. Cardiac dysfunction and potential death.

I reserve the right to refuse anything that someone else wants to put in my body.

Yes, everything has risks, that's exactly why you have to leave the risks up to the patient to decide, and not force them to do the particular option that you prefer.

If it was the first, that's a very rare time for an allergic reaction to occur. I'm not saying its impossible, just unlikely. How old was your sister when this happened and is she allergic to other things with boric acid/"borax" in them?

She was in her twenties, and she had no allergies or health conditions of any kind. The Gardasil vaccine. Its harmed a lot of people. The victims are not suffering from "allergic reactions."

 

[Double T]

gardisil. Ahhh. I thought you were referencing the MMR as in what is unsafe. Gardasil is having lots of issues.

What they don't tell people is that what its being vaccinated can be prevented by abstinence and/or monogamy. There, very early on, was evidence that the resulting cancer was from small changes from being exposed to the proteins in different partners semen. I haven't studied this since I was in nursing school in 05 though.