Tucson, We Have a Problem

[hooky]

Those were my comments before any information was released. I was absolutely right in my assumptions. Unless the PD is feeding the media bad information.

With all due respect, I posted links to at least 3 articles prior to any of your comments that I quoted above. All contained information that had been released. A fair amount of that conflicted with earlier information that had been released. You were even jousting back and forth with me about it. Perhaps you mis-spoke in the above quoted comment?

 

[Keyser Soze]

With all due respect, I posted links to at least 3 articles prior to any of your comments that I quoted above. All contained information that had been released. A fair amount of that conflicted with earlier information that had been released. You were even jousting back and forth with me about it. Perhaps you mis-spoke in the above quoted comment?

The first one I read they never said anything about a guy being pointed. The second one they did. I think rambone was the one who posted the next one I read. Not to say you didn't. I just didn't happen to read them.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I don't find any justification for the taking of this mans life.
If the Pope beat on my door for 45 seconds, I wouldn't go to the door to see who it was. I would grab a pistol or a shotgun. If the Pope then kicked my door in, I would point the firearm at him.
I would call these" normal" responses from a trained soldier. Please note that he left his safety on until he identified his target. Why aren't the Swat members that train daily held to this standard?
The other part that chaps my a$$ is the fact that none of the Swat members treated the man. They have been trained in BLS technique and probably some emergency field training in case one of their team members is wounded.
I feel for the family of this man. The loss of life is NEVER trivial.
I sure hope that justice prevails in this case. My prayers are with this mans family. I don't care what he was guilty of or accused of. I think its just pathetic.

That's a nice way to make your argument. Although I disagree with you on the use of force here I see your point otherwise.

 

[PatriotPride]

This joke of the day brought to you by Keyser Soze...

You have to wonder if he actually believes half the things he writes here. I WOULD find his scrambling to justify this murder amusing if it weren't for the fact that a man was murdered in his own home by the police, and the best he can say is that their was a decent level of accuracy, so the shoot MUST have been righteous.

 

[malern28us]

That's a nice way to make your argument. Although I disagree with you on the use of force here I see your point otherwise.

The use of force is supposed to be a last resort, not a first response.
We are not in Afghanistan.
I am sure one of the google masters here could quote terrorism for me.
By definition, is this not what the Swat team is guilty of?

 

[lashicoN]

If I had to guess I would say both. Maybe a crew pretending to be police. Hitting house and seizing narcs and cash. I bet its awhile before they release all the info

Isn't there a sure-fire way to know without finding out? Like the whole, "If the shooting was accurate, then it was obviously justified", secret that none of us knew about.

Perhaps (and I'm taking a wild stab in the dark here) if they found the cash Face-Up, it was received in a legal manner, whereas if they found the cash Face-Down, it was received in an illegal (drug trade or Human trafficking, probably) manner?

Anyway, if I had to pull a guess out of Keyser's ***, I would guess that he probably shot himself seventy times just to make the cops look bad and make it look like he wasn't breaking into homes, dealing drugs, pimping his children, being a terrorist, and driving around with his headlights off...wait, it's OK for him to do that, he was a cop, no, nevermind, he was just part of a crew that pretended to be cops. Wow, your "best guess" story is getting hard to keep up with.

 

[malern28us]

Isn't there a sure-fire way to know without finding out? Like the whole, "If the shooting was accurate, then it was obviously justified", secret that none of us knew about.

Perhaps (and I'm taking a wild stab in the dark here) if they found the cash Face-Up, it was received in a legal manner, whereas if they found the cash Face-Down, it was received in an illegal (drug trade or Human trafficking, probably) manner?

Anyway, if I had to pull a guess out of Keyser's ***, I would guess that he probably shot himself seventy times just to make the cops look bad and make it look like he wasn't breaking into homes, dealing drugs, pimping his children, being a terrorist, and driving around with his headlights off...wait, it's OK for him to do that, he was a cop, no, nevermind, he was just part of a crew that pretended to be cops. Wow, your "best guess" story is getting hard to keep up with.

Shot himself 70 times!

 

[MinuteMan47]

You have to wonder if he actually believes half the things he writes here. I WOULD find his scrambling to justify this murder amusing if it weren't for the fact that a man was murdered in his own home by the police, and the best he can say is that their was a decent level of accuracy, so the shoot MUST have been righteous.

I agree this is not a laughing matter.

Repulsive is a more fitting word.

The "CLEARLY justified" comment HAD to have been a joke when it is obvious that Sheriff Dip****...I mean Dupnik, has not made ANYTHING clear since the beginning.

 

[PatriotPride]

I agree this is not a laughing matter.

Repulsive is a more fitting word.

The "CLEARLY justified" comment HAD to have been a joke when it is obvious that Sheriff Dip****...I mean Dupnik, has not made ANYTHING clear since the beginning.

I agree 100%.

 

[Bunnykid68]

So because he was shot 60 times and killed/maybe murdered he is most definitely guilty until proven innocent. To some this statement would be 100% correct

 

[lashicoN]

I agree this is not a laughing matter.

Repulsive is a more fitting word.

The "CLEARLY justified" comment HAD to have been a joke when it is obvious that Sheriff Dip****...I mean Dupnik, has not made ANYTHING clear since the beginning.

It's not only that, but because the Police Officers who killed him say they found a Police Officer's uniform in his house, he made the leap that the victim is most likely involved in a home-invasion crew and probably runs drugs too. These may or may not be true, it just rings hollow coming from someone who always says we should wait for all the facts to make a judgment on his fellow officers when someone makes a bad-looking claim against them.

 

[Keyser Soze]

A. police entered with a valid warrant
B. He was crouched down in a corner with a long gun
C. He pointed the gun at officers.
D. Everything that was suspected in the house was indeed in the house.

 

[grizman]

Here we see the difference between military CQB/ person of interest raids and LE SWAT raids. Soldiers may only fire if fired upon during a raid/capture mission. SWAT is clearly trained to shoot to kill at the mere sighting of a weapon.

These threads have been posted many times with the same results. Us military guys are told we have no clue of the danger or risks LE faces from these criminals or how stressful their job is. Got news for you guy's not every vet on here was a infantry grunt! Some of us did work very similar to these swat boy's, under much worse conditions with back up farther away or no back up. Yet we managed to survive the situation and take our subject into custody if at all possible even if fired upon. I am saying this as plain as I can, this man was murdered in cold blood. A warrant and even the presence of a weapon does not authorize the termination of a person.

The dept calling this justified means nothing to anyone but the members of that dept. In this case the members of that swat team are nothing more than a execution squad! Even if the man was a criminal!

Special
Weapons
And
Tactics
Where were their tactic's?
Since when did kill on sight become a legitimate, let alone legal, LE tactic? When fear and loathing of the public became the SOP I guess.

A warrant is supposed to be for the capture of a suspect and or the acquisition of evidence after a crime during an investigation. Not to gather the initial evidence of criminal activity! Of all the items supposedly found in the home none are illegal for a mere citizen to own!

Dept policy and procedure are not law, the fact that the gov and the departments claim justification, does not change this fact.

It has been asked before if it is too much to ask for LEO's to be given the courtesy of being innocent until proven guilty in these questionable situations. We can all see it is to much to ask that the citizens be extended this constitutional right at the hands of some LEO's!!

SSDD and it will only get worse as the LE community and the gov assume more power, strip away more of the rights and protections afforded the population in the Constitution. We are moving beyond a police state now!
At an ever increasing rate I might add. Call me what you want but I remember a time when we had none of this BS going on and yes we had drugs and criminals around then, at least then you could tell the good guys from the bad guys by their actions!!!

This is my worth.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

The use of force is supposed to be a last resort, not a first response.
We are not in Afghanistan.
I am sure one of the google masters here could quote terrorism for me.
By definition, is this not what the Swat team is guilty of?

Terrorism is generally understood as the use of violence or intimidation against a target or population for political purposes. This sounds like an arrest gone bad - it's not "terrorism" as generally understood.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Here we see the difference between military CQB/ person of interest raids and LE SWAT raids. Soldiers may only fire if fired upon during a raid/capture mission. SWAT is clearly trained to shoot to kill at the mere sighting of a weapon.

These threads have been posted many times with the same results. Us military guys are told we have no clue of the danger or risks LE faces from these criminals or how stressful their job is. Got news for you guy's not every vet on here was a infantry grunt! Some of us did work very similar to these swat boy's, under much worse conditions with back up farther away or no back up. Yet we managed to survive the situation and take our subject into custody if at all possible even if fired upon. I am saying this as plain as I can, this man was murdered in cold blood. A warrant and even the presence of a weapon does not authorize the termination of a person.

The dept calling this justified means nothing to anyone but the members of that dept. In this case the members of that swat team are nothing more than a execution squad! Even if the man was a criminal!

Special
Weapons
And
Tactics
Where were their tactic's?
Since when did kill on sight become a legitimate, let alone legal, LE tactic? When fear and loathing of the public became the SOP I guess.

A warrant is supposed to be for the capture of a suspect and or the acquisition of evidence after a crime during an investigation. Not to gather the initial evidence of criminal activity! Of all the items supposedly found in the home none are illegal for a mere citizen to own!

Dept policy and procedure are not law, the fact that the gov and the departments claim justification, does not change this fact.

It has been asked before if it is too much to ask for LEO's to be given the courtesy of being innocent until proven guilty in these questionable situations. We can all see it is to much to ask that the citizens be extended this constitutional right at the hands of some LEO's!!

SSDD and it will only get worse as the LE community and the gov assume more power, strip away more of the rights and protections afforded the population in the Constitution. We are moving beyond police state now!
At an ever increasing rate I might add. Call me what you want but I remember a time when we had none of this BS going on and yes we had drugs and criminals around then, at least then you could tell the good guys from the bad guys by their actions!!!

This is my worth.

I met some guys in the military once but don't know much about the tactics used. What would you do if a weapon was pointed at you. The article never said he was killed for having a weapon?

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I met some guys in the military once but don't know much about the tactics used. What would you do if a weapon was pointed at your. The article never said he was killed for having a weapon?

Some of the initial information I read indicated that one of the point officers had an unintended discharge that went through the doorframe, showering the leading officers with splinters and triggering the rest of the shooting as the team "returned fire" on the suspect. If this is even close to being correct, it's negligent homicide at a minimum and everyone who fired his weapon should be charged as well as everyone up the chain who authorized the arrest and supervised the team. Just the fact that 70 shots were fired is indicative that the team was poorly trained, especially if the suspect was hit 60 times.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

I met some guys in the military once but don't know much about the tactics used. What would you do if a weapon was pointed at your. The article never said he was killed for having a weapon?

Now they give a medal for not killing people. And before the ROE required permission from the rear to fire on a combatant who had not yet fired on you. If they actually pulled a round off you can smoke them, although you won't get your restraint medal.

May SWAT should be offered a restraint medal too.

 

[USMC_0311]

Former Marine is warned before hand (his wife saw the team approaching). If he is one that turned bad why didn't he get a shot off? This makes no sense.

 

[grizman]

I met some guys in the military once but don't know much about the tactics used. What would you do if a weapon was pointed at your. The article never said he was killed for having a weapon?

I have had weapons pointed at me and held my fire, I have been fired on and held my fire. He never took his weapon off safe, he was is a defensive position not an offensive one. If you can't or won't understand that simple principal you will never understand tactics or threat assessment. No one had to say he was killed for having a weapon for it to be evident.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I have had weapons pointed at me and held my fire, I have been fired on and held my fire. He never took his weapon off safe, he was is a defensive position not an offensive one. If you can't or won't understand that simple principal you will never understand tactics or threat assessment. No one had to say he was killed for having a weapon for it to be evident.

So its kosher to point a weapon at someone if your in a defensive position and the safety is on. I get it now.