Tucson, We Have a Problem

[dross]

That is the EXACT same scenario that I have thought of, but the odds of you/me/us pulling something like that off seems next to impossible...

I don't know how thick the inner walls are in your house, but if a SWAT team will fire 71 shots into flesh before stopping, how many are they going to fire into the wall you are hiding behind? I certainly hope unarmed loved ones aren't also hiding behind there with you/me/us.

True. I'm mainly pointing out the irony to the LEOs who have deserted these threads that a law abiding citizen's best chance to live might be to fight rather than surrender.

The LEO silence here is deafening. Let some derogatory evidence come out about the dead Marine and I'll bet we hear from them again.

 

[SirRealism]

I've been thinking about this and I think there's one way to leave your house alive. Once you've shot and then you realize you shot a cop, you can't surrender right away. You've got to keep fighting until you get a standoff. Call the local media, and offer to surrender after they get there. Then you might have a chance. So the trick is, once you've accidentally shot at the unannounced intruders, you have to keep fighting after you realize who they are. You have to win momentarily.

It's the only way I can see under the rules they've set up.

With all the recent news and court rulings, it seems we've entered a very strange reality where sound advice and sarcasm mingle freely. Left is right, and black is the new purple. I guess I can eliminate my signature; it's a bit gauche.

Weird stuff.

ETA: I wasn't being dismissive of your post. It's just so weird to be thinking this way. What used to sound crazy now seems like sound advice.

 

[Benny]

My thoughts exactly. Criminals are easy, their cowards mostly. They want the easy meal. All you have to do is make yourself too hard a target and they move on. At least as long as they don't want you or a member of your household. Kidnappings and targeted hits are the only time the true criminal death squad is sent in, as far as I know.

But police, or worse SWAT police, now thats scary.

I would like too point out one thing that hasn't been said. If it has I sorry for the repost. That point being that emontional state of the officers involved has not been queried or even known as far as I can see.

I mean, this thread has assumed that these guy's were a jack-booted death squad carrying out to revenge kill for one of their own, and these could very will not be the case. These guy's could be destroyed emotionally from this. Just because one is on a SWAT team, doesn't mean he/she(?) is any more emotionally capable of stomaching killing another human being than any one else, let alone an innocent person, and a vet to boot. Most SWAT raids do end in 0 shots fired, and no deaths. That is the point of raid in the first place, to avoid bloodshed by having to much momentum and force that bloodshed is avoided. I would imagine from the police point of view, and the sheriffs, we are the monsters.

Of course, the political and social aspect of all this is not withstanding when taking the toll of the officer's into account here. All I'm saying lets remember that those men were human, just like you and me. And even though no damage may come to them career wise, the guilt may still have or will destroy them.


P.S.-The sheriff is still slime in my book.

One can only hope that the SWAT members involved actually do have a soul and they will now lobby against this sack of **** we call no knock warrants.

True. I'm mainly pointing out the irony to the LEOs who have deserted these threads that a law abiding citizen's best chance to live might be to fight rather than surrender.

I knew what you were pointing out and it's duly noted.

The LEO silence here is deafening. Let some derogatory evidence come out about the dead Marine and I'll bet we hear from them again.

That's a bit unfair, because besides the fact that they(INGO members who are POs) wear badges just like the SWAT team in question, they don't really have a dog in this fight. They weren't there, so I think if anything a thread addressing no knock warrants specifically seeking out the opinions of INGO LEOs would be a better reflection of their views.

 

[dross]

That's a bit unfair, because besides the fact that they(INGO members who are POs) wear badges just like the SWAT team in question, they don't really have a dog in this fight. They weren't there, so I think if anything a thread addressing no knock warrants specifically seeking out the opinions of INGO LEOs would be a better reflection of their views.

What, am I supposed to be some monument to fairness?

The irony here is just too much for me. They can get the wrong guy or the wrong house when they've had days to plan, and they are held harmless if their mistake was made in good faith. I on the other hand, must make the exactly correct judgment in the middle of the night having been woken up to the sound of shouts and my door getting kicked in, or I will most likely be killed on the scene (or die an hour later) and if I do happen to live, I will likely be punished by the law, because of course every officer involved will swear there's just no way in the whole wide world that I didn't know they were cops.

I posted in one of these threads, maybe it was this one, I don't remember, that my solution was that every cop on the raid should be fired forever from police work if they got a no knock warrant wrong. But NO, that was too draconian and unfair, after all, they may have made an honest mistake, and why should they lose their careers for an honest mistake?

This thing stinks, it stinks bad, and I'm pissed about it. So screw fairness.

 

[BumpShadow]

What, am I supposed to be some monument to fairness?

The irony here is just too much for me. They can get the wrong guy or the wrong house when they've had days to plan, and they are held harmless if their mistake was made in good faith. I on the other hand, must make the exactly correct judgment in the middle of the night having been woken up to the sound of shouts and my door getting kicked in, or I will most likely be killed on the scene (or die an hour later) and if I do happen to live, I will likely be punished by the law, because of course every officer involved will swear there's just no way in the whole wide world that I didn't know they were cops.

I posted in one of these threads, maybe it was this one, I don't remember, that my solution was that every cop on the raid should be fired forever from police work if they got a no knock warrant wrong. But NO, that was too draconian and unfair, after all, they may have made an honest mistake, and why should they lose their careers for an honest mistake?

This thing stinks, it stinks bad, and I'm pissed about it. So screw fairness.

An excellent point. We are at an disadvantage, and one by design. It's all a crap-shoot. There is some agruement to be made for the pluses of a no-knock warrant. In the hands of a good, unabusive department they can do alot of good. SWAT teams too. 99% of the time, has far as we are aloud to see, their mostly a force for good. Of course, these things are dependent on our abilty to elect good people to office. And their abilty to hire and good, unabusive personnel and as have seen, we suck at it. I'll defend democracy to the death, but we really are not very good at it.

 

[PatriotPride]

True. I'm mainly pointing out the irony to the LEOs who have deserted these threads that a law abiding citizen's best chance to live might be to fight rather than surrender.

The LEO silence here is deafening. Let some derogatory evidence come out about the dead Marine and I'll bet we hear from them again.

Damn...I still have to spread the wealth before repping you again.

What, am I supposed to be some monument to fairness?

The irony here is just too much for me. They can get the wrong guy or the wrong house when they've had days to plan, and they are held harmless if their mistake was made in good faith. I on the other hand, must make the exactly correct judgment in the middle of the night having been woken up to the sound of shouts and my door getting kicked in, or I will most likely be killed on the scene (or die an hour later) and if I do happen to live, I will likely be punished by the law, because of course every officer involved will swear there's just no way in the whole wide world that I didn't know they were cops.

I posted in one of these threads, maybe it was this one, I don't remember, that my solution was that every cop on the raid should be fired forever from police work if they got a no knock warrant wrong. But NO, that was too draconian and unfair, after all, they may have made an honest mistake, and why should they lose their careers for an honest mistake?

This thing stinks, it stinks bad, and I'm pissed about it. So screw fairness.

Again, you hit the nail on the head. When you examine it objectively, there is NO standard of equality or fairness between citizens and LEOs. God forbid we hold a LEO truly accountable when they make a mistake that ENDS AN INNOCENT'S LIFE!

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

What, am I supposed to be some monument to fairness?

The irony here is just too much for me. They can get the wrong guy or the wrong house when they've had days to plan, and they are held harmless if their mistake was made in good faith. I on the other hand, must make the exactly correct judgment in the middle of the night having been woken up to the sound of shouts and my door getting kicked in, or I will most likely be killed on the scene (or die an hour later) and if I do happen to live, I will likely be punished by the law, because of course every officer involved will swear there's just no way in the whole wide world that I didn't know they were cops.

I posted in one of these threads, maybe it was this one, I don't remember, that my solution was that every cop on the raid should be fired forever from police work if they got a no knock warrant wrong. But NO, that was too draconian and unfair, after all, they may have made an honest mistake, and why should they lose their careers for an honest mistake?

This thing stinks, it stinks bad, and I'm pissed about it. So screw fairness.

Why do I have to share the rep wealth before I can rep you again? What is my penance; must I rep Rambone? Oh, the humanity.

I used to think groups like the FDLS were loopy because they went and bought thousands of acres in the middle of nowhere and never left it so they would be left alone. Now I'm not so sure who's crazy - those who have planned for their own freedom and executed that plan or the rest of us who demand the unobtainable.

 

[rambone]

Alright, men. I know some of you are a little shaken up at the death of yet another innocent homeowner. Some of you might even be asking if our cause is righteous, and if we are still considered the good guys. I've got news for you. This is war, folks... a Drug War. And there will be civilian casualties. We can't lose our stomachs over a little spilled civilian blood. We have to remember that there is an enemy out there: drug users. They are out there, getting high and having fun, right now as we speak. They don't respect our laws, and they hate our freedoms. They will not stop until we stop them. What else do you propose, just let them do as they please as long as they remain nonviolent? I didn't think so. We must fight this enemy with such violence and vigor that they and their rebel brethren never dream of resisting the State again. Show our enemies the strength of the Empire's resolve. Now HTFU and get back out there and kick some ass!!

 

[IndySSD]

Maybe these thugs will start thinking twice before just busting down some innocent family's door.

They'll think about bringing more BOOM with them maybe.....

I've looked at this 100 ways. If the police get my house wrong and there's a no-knock, I'm dead. My own home defense plan is the same as his, send my wife and daughter to a closet and meet the intruders with my AR-15.

If they break the door down and I'm standing there with a rifle and I see they're cops so I don't shoot, they'll shoot me because I'm holding a rifle. If I shoot a cop before I realize who they are, retreat to another room, drop the rifle and wait for them - well, history teaches us what will happen. I won't get a chance to surrender.

A no-knock warrant for someone prepared to defend themselves is a death sentence. Which is exactly why there should be yes, I'm going to say it - zero tolerance for mistakes on no-knocks.

Best post in this thread so far. Rep inc

I see no solution to the problems you've presented. Where does that leave us?

My LEO friends and family also find ourselves looking for where this leaves us.... no good answers yet.

It leaves us in a bad way.

There's only one single solution, but I don't see no knock warrants leaving us anytime soon, so I cry with you.

with the recent ruling here doing away with the 4th how long before this is a daily event here?

I don't know about "Daily".... but I have a feeling that it's not going to be long before we have similar issues occurring on a much more frequent basis here.


I found a VERY interesting map linked from "O" dot com. I can't speak to it's accuracy but it is eye opening nonetheless.


Botched Paramilitary Police Raids

The biggest problem with the map above is that it doesn't show the successful raid numbers and locations. It's very one sided so please keep that in mind when viewing the results.

 

[dross]

My LEO friends and family also find ourselves looking for where this leaves us.... no good answers yet.

.

I think it leaves us here:

No more no-knock warrants for drugs. Fighting against drugs isn't worth killing someone accidentally. No-knocks should be very, very hard to get approval for and only if you're dealing with a violent criminal, and only if there isn't some better plan for taking him.

No knocks should be a last resort and planned carefully with as sharp an eye toward the safety of the innocent people in the house as for officer safety.

And getting the wrong house can never be tolerated. Be right about the damned house if you want to kick in the door.

 

[IndySSD]

I think it leaves us here:

No more no-knock warrants for drugs. Fighting against drugs isn't worth killing someone accidentally.

No-knocks should be very, very hard to get approval for and only if you're dealing with a violent criminal, and only if there isn't some better plan for taking him.

No knocks should be a last resort and planned carefully with as sharp an eye toward the safety of the innocent people in the house as for officer safety.

And getting the wrong house can never be tolerated. Be right about the damned house if you want to kick in the door.

I agree 100% with the bold statements, I'm still on the fence about the underlined.

The scary thing about this type of situation is the house we rented for the last 18 months (before we bought our house in Oct 2010) we constantly got summons' issued to our house for the previous tenant more than a year after he was gone!!!

There's not much scarier than your wife calling you, near tears because there are police banging on the door with documents in their hands while she's at home alone with our infant son crying and dog going berserk, scared to open the door.

I wonder if the guy who lived there before us had been into heavier stuff how much danger my family would have been in?

Before anyone says "You should have lived in a better neghborhood".... this neighborhood was in Franklin Township where the average home price is 100k-150k. Seemingly a GREAT family neighborhood with at least 5 LEO residents.

 

[88GT]

"They still don't know how many shooters are inside, how many guns are inside, how many people are inside and they still have to assume that they will be ambushed if they walk in this house" said Storie

Weren't they already in the home when they shot Guerena? Isn't that what they do? Isn't that what they expect? Isn't that the justification for no-knocks in the first place? I call BS.

 

[RichardR]

I've been thinking about this and I think there's one way to leave your house alive. Once you've shot and then you realize you shot a cop, you can't surrender right away. You've got to keep fighting until you get a standoff. Call the local media, and offer to surrender after they get there. Then you might have a chance. So the trick is, once you've accidentally shot at the unannounced intruders, you have to keep fighting after you realize who they are. You have to win momentarily.

It's the only way I can see under the rules they've set up.

The homeowner would still face the possibility of "death by lethal injection" afterwards though.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I think it leaves us here:

No more no-knock warrants for drugs. Fighting against drugs isn't worth killing someone accidentally. No-knocks should be very, very hard to get approval for and only if you're dealing with a violent criminal, and only if there isn't some better plan for taking him.

No knocks should be a last resort and planned carefully with as sharp an eye toward the safety of the innocent people in the house as for officer safety.

And getting the wrong house can never be tolerated. Be right about the damned house if you want to kick in the door.

Your basically stated the exact same thing I did pages ago. It was essentially the same statement but lots of people disagreed. I can assure you no knock warrants are not easy to obtain in indiana.

Ive found that snipers limit the use of a no knock entry. I recall a few occasions a no knock was obtained. Instead of immediately serving the warrant the sniper was dropped off in the morning houurs. All "certified" snipers in indiana are also certified observes. They are able to watch the house for hours from hundreds of yards away. They give you vital information; children in the home, any visitors, ect. When the mark leaves the home make the arrest. You never risk hurting yourself or innocent persons inside the home.

There are still some situations when no knock entry cannot be avoided.

Don't just read the story. Think about the words. 61 out of 70 shots landed. They obviously had sight alignment. This was not a split second type shoot. You would see something like 15/70. Chances are Guerena had the rifle on his person and was neutralized when he pointed it.

 

[iwearcowboyboots]

Weren't they already in the home when they shot Guerena? Isn't that what they do? Isn't that what they expect? Isn't that the justification for no-knocks in the first place? I call BS.

They were inside, but then they retreated to the front yard because one of the gestapo tripped which caused the rest to think he was shot. Or at least that's what I though their lawyer was saying while he was describing that awesome "we shot because because our bullets bouncing off things made it look like he was shooting" story...

 

[Keyser Soze]

They were inside, but then they retreated to the front yard because one of the gestapo tripped which caused the rest to think he was shot. Or at least that's what I though their lawyer was saying while he was describing that awesome "we shot because because our bullets bouncing off things made it look like he was shooting" story...

gestapo? Relocate, form new opinion. There is NO way they hit him 60 times without sight alignment. I have no more information on this than anyone else. Unless this was the best swat team in the nation there is no way this shoot could not have been justified. I guarantee they fired when he aimed. Or refused to drop the weapon.

 

[88GT]

They were inside, but then they retreated to the front yard because one of the gestapo tripped which caused the rest to think he was shot. Or at least that's what I though their lawyer was saying while he was describing that awesome "we shot because because our bullets bouncing off things made it look like he was shooting" story...

Surprised they didn't try to blame the swamp gas.

gestapo? Relocate, form new opinion. There is NO way they hit him 60 times without sight alignment. I have no more information on this than anyone else. Unless this was the best swat team in the nation there is no way this shoot could not have been justified. I guarantee they fired when he aimed. Or refused to drop the weapon.

Actually I can think of several.

Regardless, your implication that the hit rate is somehow tied to the righteousness of the shoot is wrong. It only proves that when the rounds were fired, aim had already been acquired. Which says nothing because one would assume even the worst JBTs would aim at what they were shooting.

 

[misconfig]

Plain and simple no matter which way you look at it, prohibition is an endless and POINTLESS WAR.

I read the other day a guy was arrested 48 times for huffing spray paint, when are these idiot lawmakers going to realize people are going to continue to do this?

It's simple, legalize, tax it and regulate it, let adults do their own thing - I'm tired of reading of senseless killings and keeping these officers behind a shroud of protection for wrong doing.

 

[Fletch]

gestapo? Relocate, form new opinion. There is NO way they hit him 60 times without sight alignment.

Sweet! Now we can get into a holy war over point-shooting vs. aimed-shooting!

 

[PatriotPride]

Sweet! Now we can get into a holy war over point-shooting vs. aimed-shooting!

And we can also discuss the logic of stating it's a righteous kill automatically if most of your shot connect