Tucson, We Have a Problem

[Keyser Soze]

Read the latest version that's all I can tell you. If you question the credibility of the story itself then quit arguing with me as there is nothing to even argue over. You can't argue over a opinion. In my opinion it was a justified shoot. they were there lawfully and the suspect pointed a weapon at officers. Safety on or off crouched standing or prone it does not matter to me

 

[Rookie]

Post the latest version.

And post ONE member willing to back up your statement about being a cop.

 

[dross]

Politicians, teachers, cops, CPS agents, rabbit inspectors - these are our Betters. We need to learn a simple truth - we must bow to their superioritah and their authoritah.

Let's face it - they make more money than we do, they have their future retirement guaranteed at our expense, they have the benefit of the doubt.

Bend a knee, touch your forelock, bow when they walk by and thank your god they don't take your head. For they are the new aristocracy. Welcome to the World of the Government Minion. Their safety is more important than your childrens'. (Review Columbine.) Their safety is more important than your rights. If you die, it's sad. (And most likely your own stupid fault.) If they die, it's a freakin' national tragedy.

I just pray and hope and beg the supernatural to please never let me be so wrong as to ever hurt one of these brave officers in the execution of their duties even if I think at that moment I'm executing what I used to think was my most important calling in the whole entire World: Protecting my family.

I just hope I don't hurt a cop breaking down my door pointing guns at me, because all he wants is to get home safe at night. If he needs to make my home a kill zone to do so, that's a small price for me to pay.

And BTW, I love Big Brother.

Just sayin'.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Post the latest version.

And post ONE member willing to back up your statement about being a cop.

Dross posted the last one I read.

 

[MinuteMan47]

Dross posted the last one I read.

You mean Dredd, right?

 

[NYFelon]

K_S, I'll ask you explicitly. Can you justify the sealing of the search warrant, given the facts of the matter at hand - those being a dead citizen at the hands of LE executing a no-knock warrant on said citizens home - in the midst of what is clearly a case of the fecal matter striking the rotary oscillator? If eveyrthing they expected to find, they found, why not allow the citizens to review the warrant, to see on what grounds, and what material they suspected, in order to have the warrant sworn out by a judge?

 

[grizman]

Politicians, teachers, cops, CPS agents, rabbit inspectors - these are our Betters. We need to learn a simple truth - we must bow to their superioritah and their authoritah.

Let's face it - they make more money than we do, they have their future retirement guaranteed at our expense, they have the benefit of the doubt.

Bend a knee, touch your forelock, bow when they walk by and thank your god they don't take your head. For they are the new aristocracy. Welcome to the World of the Government Minion. Their safety is more important than your childrens'. (Review Columbine.) Their safety is more important than your rights. If you die, it's sad. (And most likely your own stupid fault.) If they die, it's a freakin' national tragedy.

I just pray and hope and beg the supernatural to please never let me be so wrong as to ever hurt one of these brave officers in the execution of their duties even if I think at that moment I'm executing what I used to think was my most important calling in the whole entire World: Protecting my family.

I just hope I don't hurt a cop breaking down my door pointing guns at me, because all he wants is to get home safe at night. If he needs to make my home a kill zone to do so, that's a small price for me to pay.

And BTW, I love Big Brother.

Just sayin'.

Freakin' Bravo!!!

 

[hooky]

Dross posted the last one I read.

You've already admitted that you've only read select articles that've been posted. Please post the specific article you're referring to, rather than just saying "the one dross posted". By your admission, you've not read all of them and I could use the clarification. thanks.

 

[Benny]

I have no reason to believe you aren't a cop, but if you want to put that issue to rest, have a member or two that know you personally prove it by posting in here.

Post the latest version.

And post ONE member willing to back up your statement about being a cop.

Dross posted the last one I read.

No? OK, cool.

 

[hooky]

Call me crazy, but I believe the only link that Dross posted was the wikipedia article on Jesús Malverde. Did I miss one from him somewhere in this mess?

 

[88GT]

Read the latest version that's all I can tell you. If you question the credibility of the story itself then quit arguing with me as there is nothing to even argue over. You can't argue over a opinion. In my opinion it was a justified shoot. they were there lawfully and the suspect pointed a weapon at officers. Safety on or off crouched standing or prone it does not matter to me

We assume they were there lawfully. Having a warrant does not make it lawful. Let's see the warrant with THAT address. Let's see the affidavit and probable cause. Let's see just exactly what items were named in the warrant and exactly what items were found. Until these questions are answered, you have no evidence that it was a lawful entry.

Of course, I wouldn't even think of asking you to distinguish between lawful and morally acceptable, since being the former necessarily makes it the latter in your eyes.

But more importantly, let's discuss the bolded, because this makes, what is it, the third time now, but for sure the second time, that I have raised the issue of the righteousness of shooting a man for the mere physical possession of a firearm. And you have steadfastly refused to address my questions/comments.


So two questions, that's all. And the first is a simple "yes or no."

1. Do you agree with LE policy that grants the license to shoot without notice* for nothing more than a man holding a firearm (or any object that the King's Men deem is a firearm or other weapon)?

2. If yes, on what grounds is it acceptable (aside from your argument that it is lawful) to abuse the authority of LE to invade a man's home and take his life without any more due process than the statement of a narc and a judge's signature on a piece of paper granting said authority?


*For the sake of this question, "notice" does not mean notice of entry. Notice specifically means the verbal conveyance of intent to shoot if the individual does not comply with LE demands to disarm.

 

[lashicoN]

Alright, I have some awards to give out tonight. And figures, I'm out of rep again. Rookie, you get the best argument trap (awesome) I've ever seen on INGO. As I was reading this post, I was saying, "Wow. No sane person on Earth, and even talking birds, could ever, ever, argue with this arrangement of words".

Let's try to make this simple for you...
Question: Who fired the first shot?
Answer: A "highly trained" swat officer who obviously missed the class where they taught that you shouldn't have your finger on the trigger unless you are ready to shoot.
Question: Who fired the last shot?
Answer: The officers.
Question: Who fired every other shot?
Answer: The "high speed, low drag" special weapons and tactics team.
Question: Why did any of the officers fire?
Answer: Because one of their elite officers doesn't know the basic rules of gun safety.
Question: Who refused to allow medical treatment for the injured?
Answer: The officers.
Question: Who is dead?
Answer: Jose Guarena.
Question: How many shots did this combat veteran get off?
Answer: ZERO.
Question: Who were the aggressors?
Answer: The officers.

Question: Who is at fault?

Followed by the biggest, most awfully awkward, dodge...not just on INGO, but in Civilized History.

What are you talking about? They were ready to shoot the guy had a gun pointed at them.

This reply has almost convinced me to add you to my blocked users. I've never blocked a user, because I love arguing, and I'm probably the most annoying, antagonistic member of the General Political section, but when you don't even try to argue, it just isn't worth reading your posts. They just come off as lazy, and (I've never called anyone this) like a troll. I'm really disappointed with this reply.

And by the time I got to "forelock", I knew that this post was going to get Best Comedic Performance, by Dross. Wow. What a post. Rep's to you, if I had any.

Politicians, teachers, cops, CPS agents, rabbit inspectors - these are our Betters. We need to learn a simple truth - we must bow to their superioritah and their authoritah.

Let's face it - they make more money than we do, they have their future retirement guaranteed at our expense, they have the benefit of the doubt.

Bend a knee, touch your forelock, bow when they walk by and thank your god they don't take your head. For they are the new aristocracy. Welcome to the World of the Government Minion. Their safety is more important than your childrens'. (Review Columbine.) Their safety is more important than your rights. If you die, it's sad. (And most likely your own stupid fault.) If they die, it's a freakin' national tragedy.

I just pray and hope and beg the supernatural to please never let me be so wrong as to ever hurt one of these brave officers in the execution of their duties even if I think at that moment I'm executing what I used to think was my most important calling in the whole entire World: Protecting my family.

I just hope I don't hurt a cop breaking down my door pointing guns at me, because all he wants is to get home safe at night. If he needs to make my home a kill zone to do so, that's a small price for me to pay.

And BTW, I love Big Brother.

Just sayin'.

 

[orange]

Just wanted to bring up something again. This was one of four SWAT raids undertaken as part of the same operation that day. No arrests were made at any location. The police lawyer is on record saying that most likely, had police been allowed into Guerena's home no arrests would have been made.

Everything listed on the search warrant was found... and had it been found peacefully, no arrests would have resulted..? How does that work exactly?

 

[Keyser Soze]

1. No 2. Loaded question the judge is the one who issues the warrant not leos. Warrants are based off probable cause. This guy was involved in something more than narcotics. What crimes do you have to commit or for sake of argument probably be committing before your subject to a search warrant..I don't know its going to be a different standard person to person

 

[hooky]

1. No 2. Loaded question the judge is the one who issues the warrant not leos. Warrants are based off probable cause. This guy was involved in something more than narcotics. What crimes do you have to commit or for sake of argument probably be committing before your subject to a search warrant..I don't know its going to be a different standard person to person

Sounds to me like he was involved in mining, being a dad & husband and protecting his family. Everything else at this point is merely speculation.

 

[Rookie]

Oh look. Keyser Soze is avoiding the question.

 

[lashicoN]

Just wanted to bring up something again. This was one of four SWAT raids undertaken as part of the same operation that day. No arrests were made at any location. The police lawyer is on record saying that most likely, had police been allowed into Guerena's home no arrests would have been made.

Everything listed on the search warrant was found... and had it been found peacefully, no arrests would have resulted..? How does that work exactly?

Makes completely perfect sense to me. If he would have let them in, they wouldn't have had to kill him. And since they didn't have to kill him, they wouldn't have had to plant one of their uniforms and some of their drugs at the guys house to make it look like he was the bad guy.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Let's try to make this simple for you...
Question: Who fired the first shot?
Answer: A "highly trained" swat officer who obviously missed the class where they taught that you shouldn't have your finger on the trigger unless you are ready to shoot.
Question: Who fired the last shot?
Answer: The officers.
Question: Who fired every other shot?
Answer: The "high speed, low drag" special weapons and tactics team.
Question: Why did any of the officers fire?
Answer: Because one of their elite officers doesn't know the basic rules of gun safety.
Question: Who refused to allow medical treatment for the injured?
Answer: The officers.
Question: Who is dead?
Answer: Jose Guarena.
Question: How many shots did this combat veteran get off?
Answer: ZERO.
Question: Who were the aggressors?
Answer: The officers.

Question: Who is at fault?

Maybe you did not understand my answer. There wasn ever an ad, nd. So you just totally making this up. So you making stuff up and answering questions based off false statements. Your trying to question training off something that never happened. They also never refused treatment. Medics were allowed in when the area was secure.

So in short as far as we know they all fired when there fingers were on the trigger.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Makes completely perfect sense to me. If he would have let them in, they wouldn't have had to kill him. And since they didn't have to kill him, they wouldn't have had to plant one of their uniforms and some of their drugs at the guys house to make it look like he was the bad guy.

tinfoil hat now its been established the shooting was legally justified its on to the planting of evidence.

 

[hooky]

So in short as far as we know they all fired when there fingers were on the trigger.

We now have some common ground to build on...finally.